Does anyone remember the last presidential candidate who preached "family values" and "christian beliefs" during the elections? Yep, it was our current President.

Most of you. My Friends on PBJ haven't reached the age of "Critical Thinking" so thier for. You haven't considered your own "Mortality" and what happens after you DIE! Worldy Politics and Theology will not mean as much to you after you reach that age and realize "YOU COULD DIE AT ANY MOMENT". Your attitudes about "Relegion" will change. Then you will understand the true meaning of life and its not "42" LOL!!!

Sir Rod that is one the most insulting things you can say to people you really do not know.

Are you thinking "Critical Thinking" is as you believe? Well it is not, belief is subjective what I believe is what I believe it takes no proof it is completely subjective and internal to the individual. You do not have to agree with my beliefs and you can feel I am a "lost soul" but you will respect my beliefs.

I for one have thought long and hard over my life about my beliefs. I have been open minded when discussing different views on religion, moral/ethic codes, after life,...etc. I have taken Philosophy,Theology, Ethics, and attended Seminary Classes. I have talked with Clergy of many religions and looked deep within myself for MY ultimate truth.

I am an agnostic with a strong juda-christian influenced moral code because of my upbringing but I BELIEVE that there is nothing after this life. You can disagree with MY BELIEF but do not insult me by saying I have not considered my own mortality.

"Qui tacet consentit"


"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles

A good read that explores all the lovely grey areas of the classic arguments mixed with current evidence from the latest scientific research in biology, astronomy & genetics. Written in a very investigative "prove it" way...
if you are still looking that is.



Amazon.com: The Case for a Creator: A Journalist Investigates Scientific Evidence That Points Toward God: Books: Lee Strobel

I'm glad someone brought out the Deist/Agnostic beliefs of our founding fathers. I would daresay the vast majority of people believe that our country was founded by religious people. It is very clearly not the case.

Belief in a higher being does not equate to being religious. Thats what being agnostic means or can mean...you believe in a higher power however that doesn't mean you believe in an organized religion of any kind.

Did they, the founding fathers, have a moral code? I would say so. Does it mirror many of the judeo-christian beliefs? Yes it does. Does that mean its the same? Most certainly not.

I certainly hope that the republicans do not select Huckabee to represent them just as much as I hope the democrats don't select Clinton to represent them...as I'll have no choices on whom to vote for.

Just to make sure everyone is on the same boat here:

Agnostic

1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

John, you have a copy? I'm not opposed to reading. You never know everything and like anyone your belief structure changes as you grow. I doubt it will be anything earth shattering but it is always good to keep an open mind. I've got to stop giving you openings to slip this stuff in on me . You are very diligent on trying to subjugate me subtly

"Qui tacet consentit"


"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles

Just to throw in my 2 cents on Sir Rod's post. I don't take his post as an insult to you or those of similar mind. He didn't write in absolutes-- I believe he used words like "most" as opposed to something like " None of you have..."
I would figure from Sir Rod's post that he figured there would be exceptions like you.

A church I used to attend had a brief writing on what is know widely as "the church bulletin" (usually a single, folded sheet of paper filled with information) of some things they considered important. One of those was the saying, "Be slow to take offense and quick to forgive". You don't have to be religious to see the wisdom in that.

Granted people do offend, often without meaning to, but I respectfully suggest that everyone should make sure you're not like gay activists (to name one of many groups that are guilty) who are actually looking for something to get riled about.

Carolina Riot
www.carolinariot.com

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"When you're in command, command!"-Vice Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey Jr. (WWII)

Principle: Reliance on the Providence of God

Judeo-Christian Roots

"For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee. Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 54:10 - 17)

American Founding Ideal:

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; .. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." (Declaration of Independence. See also John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 355-377)

Principle: Law of God forms basis of good human laws

Judeo-Christian Roots

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. (Psalms 19:7 - 8)

American Founding Ideal:

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756 (Federer, William J., America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations , FAME Publishing, Coppell, Texas, 1994, p.5)
"These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this...
"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. William Blackstone (Federer, p.52)

Principle: Religion and Morality form basis of Liberty

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof." (Leviticus 25:10)
"Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the Lord." (Jeremiah 34:17)
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)

American Founding Ideal:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address

Principle: The Equality of Man

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. Ye shall not respect [discriminate against] persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it." (Deuteronomy 1:16-17)
"Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect [discriminate against] the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor." (Leviticus 19:15)
"God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

American Founding Ideal:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Declaration of Independence
"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States" U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 9, Paragraph 8)

Principle: God-Given Human Rights

Judeo-Christian Roots

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:27 - 28)
"Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet.. (Exodus 20:13-17)

American Founding Ideal:

".that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

Principle: Government authority by Consent of the Governed

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment." (Deuteronomy 16:18)
"Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.. So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes." (Deuteronomy 1:13 - 15)

American Founding Ideal:

".governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." (Declaration of Independence)
"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government" (U.S Constitution, Art. IV, Section 4)

Principle: Sanctity of Contract

Judeo-Christian Roots

"If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth." (Numbers 30:2)

American Founding Ideal:

"No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1)

Principle: Two Witnesses

Judeo-Christian Roots

"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

American Founding Ideal:

"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1)

Principle: No Corruption of Blood

Judeo-Christian Roots

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deut. 24: 6)

American Founding Ideal:

".but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 2)

Principle: Sabbath Day Excepted

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work." (Exodus 20:8-10)

American Founding Ideal:

"If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 7, Paragraph 2)

Principle: Separation of Church and State

Judeo-Christian Roots

"Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which be Cæsar's, and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25)

American Founding Ideal:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

Principle: Teaching the Law of Liberty to Next Generation

Judeo-Christian Roots

"And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deuteronomy 6:7)

American Founding Ideal:

"Let [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges, let it be written in primers, in spelling books and in almanacs, let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation." (Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", January 27, 1838)

TATER

I'm an Atheist and will aways be an atheist. I care not who belives in what or why, only when you push your beliefs on to others do I get upset. Religion is best kept to church and home and not in the government.

I loaned out my copy to "slinger" --- he is looking for a bit of certainty in his belief system and there are more than a few inescapble facts the book examines that lead to intelligent design conclusions. Being a geeky engineer at heart, I appreciate the science behind the homework Stroble does. He interviews the leading scientists in each field (Genetics, Microbiology, Astronomy), cross references the data with other leading researchers, and examines the findings.

When I get it back, Ill pass it on to you sir. Should be some interesting discussions after - not to suggest Marchinco topics are dull..