Huckabee Commits Political Hari Kiri

[Grendel]

[quote=ace007;206274]...but 'ol Rod can speak for himself. In fact, I suspect that while Grendel took Rod to task, I suspect he wasn't actually mad at him personally, because he knew Sir Rod's a good guy & that posts can come across the wrong way...QUOTE]

ACE you are correct. I am very slow to anger or offend but there is one thing I have very little tolerance for and that is attitudes of genrealization. Rods broad sweeping, "Most of you. My Friends on PBJ haven't reached the age of "Critical Thinking" so thier for. You haven't considered your own "Mortality" and what happens after you DIE!" statement was a very arrogant statement of generalization. Except on here, Rod and I do not know each other. I met Rod briefly last Feb. in passing at Blanding and we know nothing about each other. I do not judge people on their age, color, creed, race, political or sexual orientation. Though time does impart experience it does not necessarily impart knowledge or maturity.

I am not mad at Rod at all, but he and everyone here needs to understand that when you make statements, especially generalized broad ones, there is a good chance someone is going to take exception. My intent was to let Rod know you can not let go with a BOMB like that without getting a response.

As a side note DOCROCK your personal philosphy and mine seem to mesh fairly closely given your post here.

Now lets not digress too far further from the topic at hand and that is Huckabee's professed intent to amend the Constitution with a direct connection to Christianity.

He [Huckabee] can try all he wants but it'll never happen and he'll commit political suicide if he does make the attempt. To be honest I'd be perfectly happy with him committing political suicide. Though our laws are based on a moral code supported by the tenents of Juda-Christian beliefs I do not want any religions belief to effect our policy or law of our Constitution. GOVERNMENT and RELIGION must stay seperated.

[tate0301]

LOL!! If you want to talk then start out by citing your own sources. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with "Wake up America". Actually all those comparisons came from a Congressional study of Constitutional roots.

The recorded speeches, journals, and letters of our presidents have a lot in common. The National motto "In God We Trust", The National Anthem "In God is our Trust", National Hymns, The Pledge of Allegiance "One Nation Under God", The National Seal "Annuit Coeptis", National Holidays, One of our nations first colleges Harvards official motto "For Christ and the Church", all point to one conclusion.

George Washington – 1st President
Washington was a devout Christian as evidenced by his prayers, one of which ends with the words, "Almighty God, and most merciful Father . . . bless my family, kindred, friends and country; be our God and Guide this day and forever, for His sake who lay down in the grave and rose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen". Some of Washington 's prayers are attached.

President Washington ended his Inaugural Prayer with, " . . . grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen".
The guiding hand of God is clearly seen as one reads Washington 's words: "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States . Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency."

Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that his great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

John Adams – 2nd President
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were……the general principles of Christianity.”

Thomas Jefferson – 3rd President, wrote in 1805
A national prayer by Jefferson , "Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage: we humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth. In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."

James Madison – 4th President, wrote in 1787
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future . . . upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Benjamin Franklin – said in 1787
“I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men…..”

John Quincy Adams – 6th President, wrote on July 4, 1821
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration . . . they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct."

John Jay – First US Supreme Court Chief Justice
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

Noah Webster – Authored the first dictionary, and wrote in 1833
“The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles….. this is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government….the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.”

Theodore Roosevelt – 26th President
"After a week on perplexing problems . . . it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty' . . . (my) great joy and glory that, in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of The Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world."

Woodrow Wilson – 28th President
" America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements or righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures."

Harry Truman – 33rd President
“….. asking divine guidance that in all we do may we follow the will of God. May we Americans all live up to our glorious heritage.”

Gerald Ford - 38th President
On 9-8-74, Ford told the nation he was pardoning Nixon, and said, "The Constitution is the supreme law of our land, and it governs our actions as citizens. Only the laws of God, who governs our consciences, are superior to it . . . I do believe, with all my heart and mind and spirit, that I, not as president but as a humble servant of God, will receive justice without mercy if I fail to show mercy."

Ronald Reagan – 40th President
"That together with God’s help, we can and will resolve the problems which now confront us, and after all, why shouldn’t we believe that……we are Americans!"

References:

The Separation Illusion, 1977, John W Whitehead, Mott Media, Milford TX.

The Second American Revolution, 1960, David C Cook, Elgin IL.

American Historical Documents, 1960, Harold C Syrett, Editor, Barnes & Noble, New York NY.

America’s Providential History, Mark A Beliles & Stephen K McDowell, Providence Foundation, P O Box 6759, Charlottesville, VA 22906.

A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution, M E Bradford, 1982, Plymouth Rock Foundation.

This Independent Republic, 1964, R J Rushdoony, Thoburn Press, Tyler TX.

Originally Posted by socoj2

Wow On some of those you are making a stretch as bad as the elastic man. For one the John adams quote is taken out of context because he is talking about a Utopian Society where they only practice one religion.

Originally Posted by socoj2

Did you want me to go through the Koran and pull out the same ideals? THOSE ARE NOT specific to Christian Ideals. Did i say ALL of the founding members of the US where not religious? no some were very spiritual and some where Christian.


PS. How did i get the feeling that someone would come in here and cut and past a bunch of passages out of Wake Up America?

I mean WOW did you even read that nonsense you posted?

As Tate has said with all his excellent reference which I do not need to do now that he has, but I will piggy back a little and I hope I do not offend him for his work stand alone and without argument to one who knows history and the intelligence or reverence that these men had to a Supreme being otherwise known as GOD.

These men are being portrayed as evil in the academic realms today because God forbids if today’s youth has pride in their country or culture in the American way. We cannot have pride is our history because to do so may offend someone which in today PC is unthinkable , unquestionable and unapproachable because to disagree with the mainstream press and liberal media is offensive and you will be castigated as a racist bigot.

One said earlier that Tate used something out of context, I say not read the following books, John Adams By McCullough, Alexander Hamilton By Chernow, His Excellence by Ellis, Benjamin Franklin by Isaacson, George Washington Leadership, by I forget, God in America By Newt, just to name a few. You will see these men views in God.

The mainstream press and Liberal academic intellectual idiots are known for only using what they can to prove their point, they will show their intellect by quoting the Great Greek Philosophers, but yet they will not bring up what one great Greek Philosopher stated, I forget which one But I will go through my personal library and dig out by college books and find it. The Greek said sex should be between a man and women only who are married and anything else is wrong and should not be tolerated. Remember these Greeks were from the secular realm with no mentioning of god in any of their works, Homosexuality all around but yet this one Socrates, Plato or Aristotle, I forget who said it but they make this claim and distinction. What two people do in their home I do not care but do not tell me that I have to teach my children that this is an acceptable lifestyle, to who’s standard, not mine? I work with a Gay guy, I treat him like he is a human being, he does not try to convert me and I do not do that to him. We work in peace and we have a love for another has human being and I would do anything for him because he is a god man, but the sin that he commits when he seeks pleasure is between him and god, which he will answer for one day to the maker of us all.

I could go but I need to eat and I have been informed by the general that I am taking my daughter and hers friends to the movies tonight, wow…
Love all of you despite our differences.

Juk

P.S I believe in Adam and Eve not Steve. So just because I love you guys does not mean I want to swap spit with or take showers with you, that is for my lovely bride of 15 or 16 years my bad I can remember right now.

Forgive Grammar I did not proof read my work, so it is as it is.

[Saludapaintballer]

Originally Posted by thumper

A good read that explores all the lovely grey areas of the classic arguments mixed with current evidence from the latest scientific research in biology, astronomy & genetics. Written in a very investigative "prove it" way...
if you are still looking that is.



Amazon.com: The Case for a Creator: A Journalist Investigates Scientific Evidence That Points Toward God: Books: Lee Strobel

Thumper - Good Read!!!

Speration of Church and State....
In my studies I have come to the conclusion that these words were coined not so that the Christian church could not have anything to do with the government but that the government could not dictate your beliefs and your church. They felt that it was not the governments job to tell you what church you had to go to or that you had to go to church a certain number of times a month or a week. In England, during the revolution, if you were in Government you had to attend two church services a month or you were to be thrown in jail for a time. That is why the founding fathers used the moral values of the christian faith to form the base for our country because they believed in those values and knew that without them we would be doomed but at the same time they did not want to create a government that would through the centuries revert back to the government controlling what churches were to be organized and telling you when you had to go to church. It was kind of a safety clause for the later generations to not have to be under what they were under in England. They believed that Christianity was a personal belief and nothing that the government could force on someone.

The one guy (socoj2) that posted all the quotes by the founding fathers calling them atheists was not all the way correct...Benjamin Franklin was not an athiest. he made that commit not against Christianity. He made that statement about the church of England. The organized church. He believed in God and often quoted scripture. The problem he had was that he found more truths in the scriptures to be true than what was being taught in the church of England. So he hated the gathering of the church becasue it frustrated him becasue he knew there was more. So he stopped going. It wasnt that he did not believe in God. He just had a real problem with the church itself so why go. There were no other options for churches for him to go to since there was only the Church of England. I have been to Old Williamsburg, VA and I have sat in the same church that Benjamin Franklin attended along with many of the other founding fathers that was quoted as being atheists. George Washington was also a believer. He often prayed to "The Lord God" for strength and courage in times of battle.


I enjoy a relationship with Christ......

[scpaintballer01]

socoj2, did you know that Ben Franklin was so obsessed with self purity that for one year as an expierment, the man actually wrote down every sin *dictated by the bible and Christianity* he ever made, trying only to every day not make that same mistake again. He wrote them down in a chart which anybody can view, id show it to you, but im too lazy.

Also- the founding fathers werent religious guys....gosh, they were Masonic.


lets see who's attention that catches lol

[ace007]

Originally Posted by Saludapaintballer

George Washington was also a believer. He often prayed to "The Lord God" for strength and courage in times of battle.
I enjoy a relationship with Christ......

Certainly George Washington wasn't perfect, but he was a Christian. If you read the quote attributed to him in the earlier post carefully, you'll see it has nothing to do with disavowing Chirstianity. If George was alive today & happened to live beside the guy that posted that, he might would go over to his house & slap him for grouping him with or using him to support non-believers-- or maybe challenge to a duel, which was legal in his day I believe. Most likely however, he'd just be quiet & let the towns people laugh him to scorn.

***
There's 2 things going on here in this thread--the original post had to do with the constitution & Huckabee wanting to change it somehow--I'm not personnaly familiar with those details yet.

Then there's a mix of people slamming religion in general, Christianity, & those making posts more friendly to Bible believers. We really should start a separte thread for that I suppose, although because of the original post making a statement about separation of church & religion, you could make the case that it's open seaon for discussion right here.
****
Some of the things that need to be discussed are: just what is religion (ex. humanism is a religion with man as the god), what the constitution actually says & what those words meant at the time. I don't have time right now to handle it-- maybe somebody will. But briefly-- the contitution forbids the CONGRESS from making laws with respect to religion. That's a 2 way door-- Congress, for example, can't declare Catholic ther official U.S. religion, but here's the mirror of that--it can't pass laws against Catholics either. Anything (rights) not specially given to the congress is reserved for the states (hench the idea of states rights). Thus any federal body ruling, for example, that a Manger scene can't be displayed on state or county owned land (ex. fire dept.) because it's unconstitutional is wrong. In fact, per the constitution, the federal courts, the congress, & the president have no legal right or standing in such matters.

Why they get away with it anyway is another story.

Now discuss, discuss!!!

[socoj2]

You guys drink to much kool aid..

1. Classifying Washington as a Devout christian is laughable considering the main didnt take communion. and Rarely went to church. But hey maybe we have different ideas about what devout is...

Washington understood the distinction between morality and religion which is more then i can say for either of you.

2. Your James Madison Quote is a forgery, Look up david Barton and proof that he made up the quote.

3. Your Patrick Henry quote? did you look up the story behind it?
In 1768 Patrick rode many miles on horseback to a trial in Spotsylvania County, Virginia. Three Baptist ministers were being tried for preaching the Gospel without approval of the Episcopalian church. Patrick Henry was greatly disturbed by this and in the middle of the proceedings he interrupted;
"May it please your lordships, what did I hear read? Did I hear an expression that these men, whom your worships are about to try for misdemeanor, are charged with preaching the Gospel of the Son of God?" The preachers were released. He was a great defender of religious freedom and later he stated, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

It wasnt written by Henry is was a recitation by a preist, wondering how that happened?


4. The National motto "In God We Trust", O Done in 1956... Yeah founding princepal
The National Anthem "In God is our Trust", While Written in 1814, not adopted as the national anthem until 1931...
National Hymns, Not sure which ones you mean
The Pledge of Allegiance "One Nation Under God", - LOL WRITTEN by a baptist minister. Lets look at the originall....

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

I didnt get in god we trust until 1954 when Dwight "thought" it was a good idea.

The National Seal "Annuit Coeptis", Most likely made it because Frank was a mason and Jefferson was a supporter.

National Holidays, - SOFA KING WE TODD DID
Harvards official motto "For Christ and the Church", all point to one conclusion. What harvard has to do with the constitution and the founding of the country is beyond me.

NOw as to why quoted a bunch of other people is beyond me. NO where did i say People where not religious. I said to say that This is specifically a Christian country founded on only christian ideas is Idiot to say the least. The ones you posted in the other thread draw some EXTREEEM conclusions. And i could just as easily relate them to ideals in the Koran.

You are going to find similarities where you look really hard for them. And Christians look REALLY hard for them. The country was founded specifically NOT to give promise to one group or another as much as the christians would like.

As for the Wake up america, i was over on their site and they had almost an exact list of what you posted. Ill be picking up Federer's book to take a look at it. THE ORIGINAL 13-A Documentary History of Religion in America’s First Thirteen States

[socoj2]

Originally Posted by Saludapaintballer

The one guy (socoj2) that posted all the quotes by the founding fathers calling them atheists was not all the way correct.....

Deist. - Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience.
Agnostic - Do i need to explain?
Athetist - Again?

See Christians see the word god and associate it with their religion. I wish you guys had another word. While people can worship god it doesnt necessarily mean they follow the tennants of your religion. Hell they could worship SHiva and just refer to her as god.

[claydirt]

Originally Posted by scpaintballer01

...............Also- the founding fathers werent religious guys....gosh, they were Masonic.


lets see who's attention that catches lol

You don't have to be a religious nut, who is in church every time the doors open, to be a mason. You CANNOT be atheist, a woman, a felon, a fool or someone who does not believe in a deity. Therefore masonry is not limited to one specific religion.

[scpaintballer01]

Originally Posted by claydirt

You don't have to be a religious nut, who is in church every time the doors open, to be a mason. You CANNOT be atheist, a woman, a felon, a fool or someone who does not believe in a deity. Therefore masonry is not limited to one specific religion.

WINNER!!!