Dale Ford's take on Blanding Free Finale...

[thundertb]

Yeah something like that, but up until Viper did his event this Memorial Day weekend, Blanding was a MXS only house. And they did quite a bit to try and keep it that way. The phone calls and emails to sponsors, players, and such. The comments of you can only support one or the other to vendors, things like that. I just find it funny that seems some are all lining up against a promoter who helped pave the way for Billy to get in. Since the Blanding upper ecehlon were concerned with staying with the devil you know or inviting other devils in.

But hey, you guys already knew that right?

Don't try and spin this to something it isn't. And the Blanding fill costs a little bit more then 20 a case. And Viper actually took the cost of paint down at his game whereas the MXS game had staggered pricing in Feb but it was still the larger number the day of the game. Case for Case Billy's intial paint price is the same as Viper's was pre-reg, just $5.oo more on air and no entry. Simple considering it is the same paint made by Zap.

So you guys that dumped on the paint in May, well that second and third case may be cheaper but it will still be the same.

And I am sure that in the SE, the vote would be split between Wayne, NOCER, LCP, MPP and 24 Hour Games. Then again you have Duncan, and a whole host of others as well. How do you rank them?

[the boss]

Curios, you and viper related ? just kidding I believe in supporting any producer who puts on a good game that is safe but I also think there are some things that need to change if this sport is to grow. Price is always an issue in paintball and always will be but like all sports if you don't keep getting new people into paintball it will fail as each year people are getting out of it. As for Wayne lots of respect as with many producers he has his own field so he deals with the day to day issues of this sport. And as a field owner I can say there are some hidden cost to this sport but as a whole there is a nice profit margin to a big game. and yes I to didn't like the paint at the last bld game i thought mx had better paint and i have no alliance to either paint mfg i sell both brands and i have no preference to either producer. thoughts?

[thundertb]

Funny I used to get asked the same thing about MXS. And no I am not related to Viper, hell I don't even think I am that huge of a supporter since I play every game I can all over the country. I have played Billy's field at a Free Finale and commanded there at a NOCER game. I have played in NJ at other promoters and more across the country. I am simply making sure that the apples and oranges are looked at fairly and objectively. Someone can have an issue, but they have to be honest about it. My posts were not full hate and useless drivel. I tried to back all my comments up with monetary figures, realistic goals and my own opinions.

As far as growing the sport, sure money is an option. However what I am seeing is that the experienced players are moving on to airsoft or mil-sim play, leaving this sport for the 'younger' player or 'cost-conscious' player leaving a huge void.

And this sport has grown every year, but scenario is continously pushed and pulled into new directions. But here is a stat for you, just based on realism since it is way to hard to judge this. but I bet you that there are less then 10,000 active scenario players in the whole country. Not people who play big games or themed games, scenario paintball players. And you wonder why people fight over them so.

And the Free Finale is shooting Zap which was the paint Viper used. As far as preference for a promoter, I try to pick the best promoter in the area to which I am travelling for the game that I want to go to. I do not hold any promoter higher then the other in any way but by evaluating their gameplay. The amount of time I get to play, the background work that goes into it, the missions, the role play, the props, do I get to bring my toys (NVG's) and how well the refs perform. Paint and Air are really secondary to me when I judge a promoter. Because for the most part, they can't help those items.

And Viper owns a field here in Texas as well. Seems to be the thing to do in scenario these days, get your own field.

[Furby]

I'm told that the Army jerked ZAP around quite a bit about the paint formulation for the Viper game, which led to the issues alot of us saw. Now that they have some experience with this formulation, hopefully they'll have the time to make a good ball this time around.

Paint is a pretty divisive issue here...back in the day when I was working with/for X.O., a game I was at was using the low end HotBox paint, charging $60/case for it, and players were throwing roaring fits about how crappy it shot...in that case I know for a fact the field op was told NOT to buy Hot Box to sell at that price, and he did it anyways. For $2-3 more a box at his level, he could have provided the higher end Spectrum or V1, and didn't. It's a very common occurrence all across the country, I imagine...producers who depend on the field to take care of the paint for their games end up getting it in the pooper because a cheap-assed field op wants to jerk the players around on an FPO event.

Funniest thing was, the distributor for that game was giving me the paint that people were throwing the screaming fits about and I was having a ball putting asses off the field with that paint through a 2k6 Angel Speed, which was notoriously picky as hell. In some cases field ops took the lesson to heart and offered a mid- or high-grade paint to players who were paint snobs.

Some people are going to complain no matter what, and you can only do the best you can.

[the boss]

Furbe we had a game at our field and I had 2 types of paint the cheap box and the good box my daughter priced the paint and marked it backwards the cheap paint was marked higher than the good paint. most people bought the cheap paint and raved about how good it shot and complained about the better grade paint. It is sometimes the perceived not the reality that most people go by. I do have to say that the zap at the fear game was pretty rough we sell some of the spank by zap at our field and have had pretty good luck. There is no telling what the gov required for the game but I did like the paint at mx mount site game better (just the paint).

[VPD]

UP FRONT DISCLAIMER: I ought to change my screen name, since there is no more VPD...

The Boss - how right you are! I was the supplier for the event that Dale referred to and I'm sure he can tell you that my concern for making sure that players have a good time and my taking responsibility for what I supplied is genuine. My wife was in tears at that event: we took a pounding by 'making it good' for the field owner/game producers - swapping much higher end paint for the "bad" stuff, letting folks bring in walmart paint and replacing every single case of paint that was brought in to the field owner out of our own pockets. All of this while we watched players rip open every bag of paint and leave it exposed to the hot, humid Florida air (and then come and complain), while we handed Dale and other honest & reliable players the 'rejects' and they didn't just give it acceptable marks, they ran up to complainers, swapped paint with them and demo-shot it and everyone raved about how straight it was - until they were informed that it was the exact same paint they had complained about half an hour before, while I went to the target range with the owner and he agreed that the samples were flying straight and breaking easily - but refused to accept that as proof - when I had idiots throwing paint at trees overhand and saying 'see, it bounces'.

Players don't know paint, they don't evaluate it on anything other than what they hear from someone else and you aren't the only one who has experimented with upcharging cheap paint and gotten rave reviews. (I gave my tournament team white box in up scale boxes and they and the teams they were competing against raved about it...even got three requests for sponsorship...)

TB - you want to talk about underhanded bs at games? That whole game was a setup by competitors; they had a small yet vocal and visible cadre of players there who's sole job was to bad mouth the event, the paint, the reffing, the game, all day long, no end.

Its the one thing I'll never understand about paintball - that folks all doing the same thing, having the same love and the same desires not only fail to work together on common goals but actively undercut and backstab each other over a few dollars here or there. Those same people are the ones responsible for keeping costs generally high - because instead of working together and sharing resources, each and every one of them has to purchase/rent/hire every single thing they need. If they worked together, fills would be virtually free by now because the mobile fill rigs would already all be paid for, the refs would be well-experienced and well compensated because there would be regular and steady work for them, there'd be a fleet of tanks and other props readily available for all to use, there'd be national advertising because they'd all be picking up a portion of the cost, blah, blah, blah. I don't think anyone has the slightest clue as to how much greed and petty jealousies have cost them over the years.

[mytmouse]

Quotes from TB in this thread.....

Some seem to think that I am angry or upset that Billy got Blanding. Some seem to think that I am un-happy that the 'common man' as they call it gets to play Blanding for the never before seen price of free. Some seem to think that I am trying to help Viper in maintaining his place in Blanding or whatever. So let me tell you all that you are wrong. I have no reason to lie and if you want to go back and try to use my words to prove some point that isn't there, by all means go ahead.

I am sincerely glad that Billy got Blanding, and I knew that it was coming. I also know that MXS is doing a Game in Feb. again, reported to be the last event of MXS ever. And that Viper is doing at least one game, possibly in the summer and maybe another if the VIP game is a success. Chances are that if Billy is successful and chooses he will get another game next year maybe even moving the Free Finale there permanently. And that is all good for the players, the producers, and the sport.

I am not knocking Billy Smith, but I am not going to shirk from the politics of the situation and hang on one side just because of personal likes or dislikes. I did that for far too long as it is. I have talked to Billy (not about this, but other things) and while he and I aren't best friends, I think I can have a pretty fair assessment about him. Now I am sure that my opinion is not 'popular' and that to me is the difference. I see people saying that Dale's was the only objective piece, and I don't know if I agree with that.

Quotes from world of TB .com

So let's look at this objectively before the 'Boys from the LCP Army' come after me in 4-wheel drive trucks, bows and arrows, swinging a rope and screaming 'boy you got a pretty mouth'. And I was born in GA and raised in SC, so get over me calling you rednecks, if the shoe fits walk that mother****er off.

The first year was set on the same weekend about 3 hours north of Ocala and it drew well over 1000 players most of whom lived in GA, SC and surrounding areas who were tired of going to FL for a game, tired of Wayne, tired of FL paintball politics, or were just notorious cheapskates wanting a 'free game'.

But every year, the Free Finale has taken a more and more 'commercial turn' as they introduce certain things into place. Requiring pre-registration, even if it is just for air and then changing it from a BYOP to field paint only (even if they did offer multiple brands). What that means is that the field owner found that by giving it away for free he couldn't make any money even with more people. It means that one of the biggest reasons for the Free Finale came out, and that is name recognition.

<<***NOTE.... I have to take some responsibility for this motion. In a conversation with Billy, I encouraged him to eliminate the BYOP aspect of the game because I recognized that the pricing he could offer was still far better than you could get anywhere else. This would amount to more paint sales which in turn would amount to more buying power for billy and LCP, and also in turn, would amount to better pricing for the player. If I was wrong (and I don't believe I was) I apologize.>>

When you want to get known in this sport, there are several ways to do it. Some long and hard and some are quick and easy, however the fastest is to do it as a producer and promoter that builds a following of gnomes who will run around and do your bidding on forums and other events and fields. They will attack and defend all people who would dare to look at the Emperor and say look that fool has on no clothes. But in the end, the Free Finale has become one big ego trip for the owner and his friends and the rest of the 'cattle' eat it up thinking that they are getting over on the man by playing the 'Free Finale'. Well, 'moo-cows' you aren't getting over, you are getting taken, year after year and time after time.

So now here we come to what this started out as, why 'Billy's Blanding Bash' may indeed be the worst thing to happen to Camp Blanding. Now this is just speculation, but it is backed up with facts and figures and I have produced a scenario game or two in my day.

I would say I would be there to see first hand, but I am sure that even like the people that they claim to not be like, I will be persona non gratis now that I have publicly taken the event to task, but we shall see. Because I would still go to the event just to see if I am right or wrong, but I get the sneaking suspicion that not only am I going to be right, I might have under-estimated how right I will be.

END QUOTES

I do take some of the comments to be offensive. I don't have a beef with TB, but I do have the intelligence to make an educated decision on what style of paintball and for what price, I choose to participate in. On one hand he claims to be "sincerely glad that Billy got Blanding".... Yet on the other hand he says that "Billy's Blanding Bash may indeed be the worst thing to happen to Camp Blanding." And he, himself, admits that he has "Taken this event to task." and that the followers of the event are "cattle" and we should "moo" because we are being "taken".

It seems that if anyone elses opinion doesn't fall in line with his.... then they are doomed to a fate of a "cheapskate" player who is not capable of stand up ball, will take short-cut reinsertions to get their "moneys worth", and that they will resort to "coming after him in a 4-wheel drive truck, with bows and arrows, swinging a rope and screaming 'boy you got a pretty mouth."

I don't try to.... NOR will I EVER inflict my form of paintball onto another player. Different fields and promoters have their own style and flavor and I have been known to partake in all of them. It's not Billies, Waynes, Vipers, MXS's, mine or TB's place to dictate what you should pay for, much less what you should enjoy! The fact of the matter is, that Scenario paintball is unique in the fact that it caters to many different styles and only the consumer can decide if they are truly satisfied. In turn they should react based off their experience of satisfaction with certain promoters, after they have sampled their product. It's pretty basic really. Obviously, LCP didn't meet TB's criteria. Fair enough, but it HAS met MANY others! All you can do is make your own evaluation based on personal experience.

TB is taking an approach that he only intended to circumvent any potential problems with no other agenda. I do question that based on the quotes I have pulled here..... BUT!!!!!!!!! In all fairness I do recommend reading all applicable material regarding the situation and his take at the following link so you can gather your own conclusions, because I DID make a point to quote the ones that enforced my point here. I found very few of them to be in support of the event which is why I was compelled to post, however not ALL of them were derogatory.

In summary..... If the shoe fits......... INDEED wear it out!!!
If you DON'T like the game..... Don't return your support!
If you enjoy the game..... good for you and please return!!!
When it comes to qualified refs...
My Team will be in support as well as some very notable others.
I began play in 1986 among some of the same groups you ran. A complete understanding of the GSRP is not only required to REF an event as a Doom Trooper but it is a requirement to be a member of this team!
I have Reffed 3 events at Blanding already, 2 as Ironman, and one as a shift ref... all for some degree of compensation. This event I will be working for the duration of the event, with NO compensation..... WHY????
Because I believe in what he is doing and I want to contribute! This is what Scenario Paintball is about right? There are many seasoned paintball veterans lined up right behind me on this endeavor as well. The reason Billy has this following is because he offers a different approach than anyone else. As stated before, I started playing in 1986.... I played my first LCP event in 2004.... In all that time I never felt more behind a producer or field owner than I did when I played his games. PERIOD. He truly wanted to offer the player a great game at a price that couldn't be beat! And he did that!!!

When it comes to Blanding being mistreated or left unacceptable..... I think you might be selling LCP, The Fl. Natl. Guard, and paintball players in general a little short!

TB's article that I pulled quotes from in this post begins in the second article on this page.
World of TB - Category: TB's SoapboxWorld of TB - Category: TB's Soapbox

[thundertb]

So Jason, I responded to your posts and while I would love to post it here, it is so long that I am sure most people would rather I didn't. However your post while well thought out and sourced drew some wrong conclusions. Please visit my blog and read and we can further discuss here, if you like.

[the boss]

Well said Mouse, I can't understand why people can't get together for these event's have fun and support the game of paintball. Some time people are going to have to realize all the back stabbing throat cutting B.S. is doing nothing but hurting attendance and the game of PB in general. This sport has a gray area that surrounds it, most people think we are training terrorist or something , the only thing you hear on the news about paintball is that some body defaced something shot someone on the street or in general bad shit!!
Our sport need new blood to continue to grow people who host games and produce games this falls on you bring in new people show a united front. As for paint by God everybody on the field is shooting the same paint , sure we don't like that it is hard as a rock (ha ha ) but deal with it. For the price you get what you get call ahead and see what they are shooting if you don't like it stay home. Hell I have heard about fresh paint old paint new paint hot paint if it goes out the damn barrel well you got your money's worth because everybody else has the same problem you came to play army BYGOD improvise use what you have get the job done because believe me brother me and my team will be coming at you wide open shooting that same paint and making our fair share of kills for the day and if you don't like that stay home because there are plenty of people that want to have a good time time to take your place that wont be bitching all the time so i say come on down to blanding bring your com-plaints we love target practice. Mouse it was a pleasure to play against you guys at Blackwater paintball game you guys play stand up paintball refreshing. now complainers go bitch or go home or shut the hell up and come have some fun playing paintball after all isn't that what you are here for, ohh yea you do have a purtty mouth where did i leave my damn rope ? now chew on that a while there are bigger things to worry about than poor old Billy and his silly little paintball game hell Al Gore says the worlds burning up . ..well it is hot now where is that damn rope

[thundertb]

Well that is certainly one way to respond to that, but I promise I won't take offense to the attempts at humor at my expense. However that magnifying glass that you broke out and put the other promoter's under? You need to then turn around and put that promoter that you are so vigourously defending and subject him to the same 'standards' that you hold all the other to as well. And that is the crux of my arguement in a nutshell.

As for the sport growing or not, how many 'new' players will the Free Finale break in? Not as many as you would think, then again maybe it will be another 'thank the players' game?