Drop Zone limits recreational paintball play to gravity fed hoppers only

[loop]

Lol well put brain Rules are rules i dont know why we argue over this has anybody even been to this field before

[crooked butt doctor]

Originally Posted by Brain

You do understand that this applies to only one established paintball field in the USA. It is their right to establish whatever rule they wish and the players right to not play there. They very obviously did this because of problems at the field and if the player(s) that are the root of the problem don't like it they can certainly create their own paintball business. It may be right or not right to tell the players what they can and can't use (at their field) but it is still a free enough country that allows them to create new rules when they feel it is necessary.
If I buy a car that can go 150 mph, why can't I go 150 mph anywhere I want? Are they afraid I would run over a noob?

in some of my earlier posts in this thread brain, i directly cited my support for the rights of the business owner to make their own policies. if you look back in the threads, you'll remember how heated the charleston smoking ban debate got. i was ALL IN for the business owners, and just so there is no confusion i will reiterate here...

i absolutely recognize and respect the rights of the field owners to make ANY policy under the sun (so long as its legal) and enforce it at their establishment. however this thread wasn't about wether they CAN do it... it was wether we thought they should. i do not.

now, not to piss you off brain, but i'm gonna address your 150mph example.
as it applies to this, the 150mph example works more in this way:

you buy a 150mph capable car, and you're planning a trip to saaaay, virginia. the powers that be have noticed that new motorists are intimidated by fast cars, and thus are choosing not to drive in Va.

so virginia says, when driving, you may have a 150mph car.... but you have to retrofit a 1.5L 4cyl motor. this way, you have effectively removed the ability of nice cars and experienced drivers from going fast. you may still have your car, but you have to rig it with something that will render it entirely incapable of performing to the level that you purchased it for.

now the other problem with that example is this... 150 mph is already illegal... electro hoppers are not. there are designated and agreed upon speed limits already in place... parallel that with ROF caps. your 150mph = my ego7 ramping.... we're both ALREADY in violation of current standing laws and safety regs.

so rather than require you to completely disregard the money and high performance product you purchased, the state of Va decides its more logical to put police (refs) out to check speeds... violators will be dealt with on a case by case basis... ie how much were you speeding, weather, attitude, time of day/night, location.... there are so many more factors to consider than just to put it that way Brain.

but bottom line, telling people that they cannot use their hard earned equipment for the sake of noobs is IMHO not right. its legal, and within the rights of the business owners, but not right.

you know i love (in a totally super gay way) you brain... hope this doesn't rub you the wrong way.

but while i see your point, i can't seem to align myself with it.

[Shrub]

Originally Posted by Brain

You do understand that this applies to only one established paintball field in the USA. It is their right to establish whatever rule they wish and the players right to not play there. They very obviously did this because of problems at the field and if the player(s) that are the root of the problem don't like it they can certainly create their own paintball business. It may be right or not right to tell the players what they can and can't use (at their field) but it is still a free enough country that allows them to create new rules when they feel it is necessary.
If I buy a car that can go 150 mph, why can't I go 150 mph anywhere I want? Are they afraid I would run over a noob?

I understand that it applies to their field but the whole point of this thread was for us to discuss it.

And as for your analogy, I see your point, but that is where the person should be responsible enough to accept it when they are caught breaking the rules. It is the "individual" who is breaking the rules that should be punished not the group.

As for the country being free that depends upon who you are ever since the PC craze took hold. But that is a topic for a different thread.

[Aerion]

I don't mean to pick on you, Nix, but I figure since we're friends (and I know you to be a mature guy) no hard feelings will result from an honest difference of opinion.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

...
but bottom line, telling people that they cannot use their hard earned equipment for the sake of noobs is IMHO not right. its legal, and within the rights of the business owners, but not right.
...

So if I plunk down $50,000 for a wiz-bang gizmo that causes my paintballs to travel 1000 yards with M-40A3 sniper rifle accuracy, guaranteed breaks and under 280bps should I be able to use it just because I paid money for it? What about a $75,000 suit that renders me virtually invisible and resists breaks? Obviously, this is kind of an extreme example, but I wanted to make the point that just because someone CAN buy something doesn't mean using it is in the best interest of the sport.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

...
so virginia says, when driving, you may have a 150mph car.... but you have to retrofit a 1.5L 4cyl motor. this way, you have effectively removed the ability of nice cars and experienced drivers from going fast. you may still have your car, but you have to rig it with something that will render it entirely incapable of performing to the level that you purchased it for.
...
so rather than require you to completely disregard the money and high performance product you purchased, the state of Va decides its more logical to put police (refs) out to check speeds... violators will be dealt with on a case by case basis... ie how much were you speeding, weather, attitude, time of day/night, location.... there are so many more factors to consider than just to put it that way Brain.
...

Virginia banned radar detectors because they enabled cheating. Radar jammers are illegal in most states for the same reason. If highway fatalities go up enough, some states just might consider requiring governors on vehicles. Or more likely, insurance companies might refuse to cover vehicles without them.

Also there are some equipment that COULD be put on cars but is banned - like nitrous-oxide for example.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

...

i will NEVER support "umbrella" regulations. by that i mean, rules that pop up and effect everyone because of a minority of trouble makers. its lazy. enforce the standing rules and leave the players that operate within current acceptible guidelines alone.
...

You're already required to have a marker that chronos to 285fps or less, barrel plugs, mask and your marker rigged so that the velocity can't be adjusted on the field. The reason for the latter was because the "voluntary cap" wasn't cutting it and people were readjusting their velocity out on the field. You also are not allowed to have a shield or a tank (in rec ball) out on the field.

In short, there are already equipment restrictions in place and the restrictions have grown as the need arises. Up until now, there hasn't been a need for ROF restrictions because the technology wasn't there. Now it is. Now field owners and players are grappling with the issue. Obviously voluntary ROF caps haven't worked or DZ would not have resorted to such a controversial policy. I'm sure those guys thought about this long and hard and came to the difficult decision that this new policy is in the best interest of their business. IMHO, they are right.

Like you said, I understand your point and I do wish voluntary caps worked but they don't always.

On a different note, Nix, when are you heading out to the sand box, or am I misreading an earlier post?

[crooked butt doctor]

Originally Posted by Aerion

I don't mean to pick on you, Nix, but I figure since we're friends (and I know you to be a mature guy) no hard feelings will result from an honest difference of opinion.




So if I plunk down $50,000 for a wiz-bang gizmo that causes my paintballs to travel 1000 yards with M-40A3 sniper rifle accuracy, guaranteed breaks and under 280bps should I be able to use it just because I paid money for it? What about a $75,000 suit that renders me virtually invisible and resists breaks? Obviously, this is kind of an extreme example, but I wanted to make the point that just because someone CAN buy something doesn't mean using it is in the best interest of the sport.



Virginia banned radar detectors because they enabled cheating. Radar jammers are illegal in most states for the same reason. If highway fatalities go up enough, some states just might consider requiring governors on vehicles. Or more likely, insurance companies might refuse to cover vehicles without them.

Also there are some equipment that COULD be put on cars but is banned - like nitrous-oxide for example.




You're already required to have a marker that chronos to 285fps or less, barrel plugs, mask and your marker rigged so that the velocity can't be adjusted on the field. The reason for the latter was because the "voluntary cap" wasn't cutting it and people were readjusting their velocity out on the field. You also are not allowed to have a shield or a tank (in rec ball) out on the field.

In short, there are already equipment restrictions in place and the restrictions have grown as the need arises. Up until now, there hasn't been a need for ROF restrictions because the technology wasn't there. Now it is. Now field owners and players are grappling with the issue. Obviously voluntary ROF caps haven't worked or DZ would not have resorted to such a controversial policy. I'm sure those guys thought about this long and hard and came to the difficult decision that this new policy is in the best interest of their business. IMHO, they are right.

Like you said, I understand your point and I do wish voluntary caps worked but they don't always.

On a different note, Nix, when are you heading out to the sand box, or am I misreading an earlier post?

absolutely no hard feelings whatsoever mike... i'm reovering from having my wisdom teeth pulled today, so if nothing else, thanks for giving me something to do.

as far as your whiz-bang gizmo and invisible suit... i absolutely do think you should be allowed to use ANY equipment you pay for that allows you to safely operate under the rules.
now your invisible suit could be considered a safety hazard because refs can't watch you and other players could bump into you etc and if it resists breaks, thats fine... so do speedball pants... but until it is found that your whiz-bang gizmo is unsafe, yes... use it.

radar detectors do enable cheating... hoppers do not... BOARDS and electro triggers do... and i still maintain that those shouldn't banned either... individual violators should be dealt with when THEY choose to operate outside safe mandates.

chrono is not an umbrella rule based on what 1 or 2 players might do... ie ROF cap to keep people from overshooting.... chrono is consitent across the board because even 1 paintball at too high a velocity can do harm and is unsafe no matter who it comes from or how many they shoot or what marker they use.

to answer your question- before march i'll be gone to iraq dude.

[thumper]

quicky post : any ROF limiting idea needs to be easy to ref or it won't work.

gravity feed : easy

hopper ball : easy

no ramp : good luck.

xxyy bps : not too hard with small groups and decent refs.

[Aerion]

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

absolutely no hard feelings whatsoever mike... i'm reovering from having my wisdom teeth pulled today, so if nothing else, thanks for giving me something to do.

I'm home sick with bronchitis. I feel your pain.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

as far as your whiz-bang gizmo and invisible suit... i absolutely do think you should be allowed to use ANY equipment you pay for that allows you to safely operate under the rules.
now your invisible suit could be considered a safety hazard because refs can't watch you and other players could bump into you etc and if it resists breaks, thats fine... so do speedball pants... but until it is found that your whiz-bang gizmo is unsafe, yes... use it.

I doubt you'd play long against me if I was picking you off before I you even had a clue where I was. It would be so unbalancing as to ruin the experience of everyone involved. No field owner with two brain cells to rub together would allow it for very obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

chrono is not an umbrella rule based on what 1 or 2 players might do... ie ROF cap to keep people from overshooting.... chrono is consitent across the board because even 1 paintball at too high a velocity can do harm and is unsafe no matter who it comes from or how many they shoot or what marker they use.

The requirement that all markers be set below 285fps is a universal safety requirement that applies to all people and that 95% of the players would voluntarily follow. Mandatory chrono checks at organized fields and scenarios are unbrella rules for those OTHER 5% that would cheat if you let them. Likewise, a voluntary 8bps cap would be followed by 95% of the players. Requiring gravity feed hoppers would be there for the 5% who would cheat if they could. Likewise, with a marker that is capable of firing 25bps, how many players, in the heat of the moment, would honestly forget the cap and let it rip if there wasn't something to enforce the rule?

Truly, I would favor allowing any kind of hopper on a marker that had a hard governor (i.e. board restricted) on it to prevent it from firing above a certain BPS. The one possible advantage to electros could be that they can designed be hard set to a BPS limit.

Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor

to answer your question- before march i'll be gone to iraq dude.

Come home safe, dude. This part of the world is a better place with you in it.

[KEFarris]

Originally Posted by pbalien73

I am also in agreement with the majority of the responses. I feel this is a move to get more people out to the field, which i'm sure is getting harder to do as the economy and extra money dries up. I reffed at this field for years in the late 90's and even then it was beggining to be an issue, pushing potential newcomers to the sport to call it quits after taking 2-3 hits. The wanna be pro-players "tearing up the newbies" as I would hear them bragging about in the parking lot ruined a lot of return customers.
Seperating groups is an option until the numbers get short as any reff. of this sport would know. Vets know to play easy with new players, but these kids rocking and rolling with their $150.00 sprayers aren't as understanding of proper recreational editcate and quickly use firepower to overcompensate for there lack of skill.
Ken runs a very nice field with a very friendly, skilled staff and I am sure this measure even if not fully understood by all will be copied by many fields around the area. However even if it isn't, players should take note that if this becomes a problem it maybe the only option to keep the sport growing. For those of you that are actually effected by this it sound like you will get rec time to shoot your hearts out once a month and the occasional scenario event to wale on the occasional newbie.
You could of course use this opertunity to realize the beauty, grace and skill of pump play.

Only because this guy, who is the best autococker tech I have known, who will pick up one of the balls you shot at him, hold it up, put it in his gun, and gog you with it at 40 yards... I post:

I don't have the time to answer everyones questions unfortunatly. We are busy helping our current local customers, and the discussion and debate is most helpfull to me if I don't feed you all my own conclusions.

A few points: We already do seperate players on fields. we often run 4+ fields at a time. tourney players have other options at our park. This is not about separating experienced from "newbies". This is about separating high rate of fire and/or bullies from players who will quit paintball if that is what they must deal with to play paintball.

Food for thought: If all our solution does is return the ratio of parents regularly playing with their kids to what it was 6 years ago, this would be about a 6% increase in the number of players....No, this wasn't the reason for this. Just an example of one possible change with our policy.

Ken Farris
Drop Zone Extreme Sports

[gfgjester]

Thanks for coming back in and posting, Ken. It does give us some kind of indicator as to whether or not all this banter was worthwhile... Please keep us updated.

[loop]

i look forwad to your full in put on the decison that you made at your field AND thanks for the response