An official statement on Nazi “roleplaying” at EMR

[Junkie]

From Viper:

It is the official position of EMR Paintball and Viper Enterprises that the displaying of the swastika, shouting of “Heil Hitler!” or "Sieg Heil", or other such Nazi nonsense will not be tolerated anywhere at the EMR facility.

Doing so will earn you not just the distain of others, but also immediate ejection from the property without refund.

The best rule to follow is this: If you have to consider whether the actions or statements you’re are about to make may be offensive then they probably are.

Now, for everyone who wants to appoint themselves “Captain Obvious” or “The Devil’s Advocate”;

* Yes, I know this is a WWII event that features Germans.

* Yes, I know that the swastika was used by many other cultures before the Nazis, including Paleolithic man in 10000 BC. Next time I do a caveman game you can put them all over your animal hide costume.

* Yes, I respect the commitment and sacrifice made by those who fought in WWII, or any war.

* Yes, I know the Russians committed atrocities in WWII as well.

* I am actually of German decent, but I am an American. That’s where I was born. I’m not German-American or Euro-American. I’m just American.

* Yes, I am proud of my German heritage. However, goose-stepping, yelling “Heil Hitler”, or sporting swastikas in Germany will get you in bigger trouble than here in the U.S.

* Yes, I respect your right to be proud of your heritage as well.

* Yes, I know this is a free country.

That being said, the freedoms enjoyed in this great nation provide that owners of private property have the right to dictate certain behaviors on the aforementioned private property.

So if you cannot, or will not, abide by the rules a friendly* EMR staff member will be happy to direct you toward the exit, and escort you there to make sure you arrive safely.

Or, if necessary, we can call a friendly* county official to help you find your way off the property.

(*You may or may not find them “Friendly” dependant on your attitude.)

Link to viperpaintball: Viper Paintball :: 26 Hour Paintball Events (PNphpBB2)
__________________
Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry

Event Director: Viper Paintball
Viper Paintball :: 26 Hour Paintball Events (News)

[D.B. Daddy]

Good for you Kerry. That is definitely the right move.

[Grendel]

Good for you and Blue.

[ace007]

Well it's his game, so V can do whatever he wants.....

as a side note, it's kinda funny, but the Japs did some awful stuff too...so bad, some committed suicide rather than be taken prisoner because they assumed they would be tortured for their deeds...but a name & face (like Hitler) is not associated with them, so history kinda lets them off Scott free.

Anyway, back to the German thing: Kinda the hot thing on Junkie for about a year has been a group of people that are really big in to the German thing. Bond Chick is certainly one of the hot things on Junkie. Anyway, I think they are known for recruiting for the D-Day game. I've been curious from the start as to how far they go with it. Then there is the feelings of our Jewish players, who I personally don't want to offend. But again--it's history and a game like that is going to have Germans...

So I find this subject interesting....it's a type of PC to some extent, it seems to me, but not entirely . I think most players are too young to really know much about the nitty-gritty details of WWII & Hitler. I'm not sure that all players would even consider yelling "Heil Hitler" a questionable act-- in fact I'm rather sure that many under the age of 30 would be clueless, especially under the circumstances of a WWII paintball game.

History Lesson: Once you take the Jewish part of it off the table, you are left with just a mean Hitler, who was made possible, and to a great extent, inevitable, by the penalties imposed on Germany at the end of WWI. So unless a player associates Hitler with hating Jews, I really don't see a reason why they would really put a lot of thought in to the actions V is dead-set against. And I'm thinking that many people in general are not really that up on history & Hitler hating Jews, even though, for many of us, it's hard to conceive that everyone isn't in the know on this.

I really like to read the exact reasons people agree with V on this--Is it the Jewish Holocaust or is there more to it than that?

BTW--the whole German thing makes me uneasy for a number of reasons.

[Silverback]

Well, most of you may not be aware, that EMR, was at one time known as "WOLF'S LAIR"and had a team of Jack booted, Goose Stepping, Gestapo looking SS types that terrorized the field for years.

So when they state that this will not be tolerated, I would bet, that they will make examples of several players if it came down to it.

[JesterTLS]

Ace007, My thoughts are Nazi are the scum of the earth. They can best serve this world by leaving it. I dont like the Nazi stuff at games. Nazi are offensive or should be offensive to ever decent person in this world, not just the jewish community, especially to Americans. i have no beef with the German palyers at games, but the Nazi stuff is just a little too much. Now if the game producer allows it, its his game. I agree with EMR on this one.

As far as the Japanese, dont care for empirial Japanese either. Those guys were out there. Far worse enemy then the Germans. Much ratehr run into a Nazi then the Japanese back in WWII. You were more likely to survive as an enemy soldier if captured.

[gfgjester]

FWIW, my experience with the majority of paintballers has been that we all strive to get along, play with a reasonable degree of sportsmanship and fair play and perform acts of charity which benefit those individuals or societies that need and deserve it. We are some of the most generous and thoughtful sportsmen I have ever seen. For a multitude of reasons, the Nazi symbolism generates horrific memories for those who are old enough to remember it. And for those with a minute knowledge of history know that the misery and atrocities that were brought on by Hitler and his Nazi underlings will always be notorious in history.

Sure, there have been many other situations in time where humans have commited horrible crimes against other humans. The Japanese in WWII; the Japanese against China, numerous times; The Khymer Rouge in the Cambodian killing fields after the Vietnam War; the Romans - period, and more as history reports. I think you get the point.

The big question is, "Why the Hell would anyone WANT to parade anything around that would cause discomfort or pain to others in our arena?" We should try to travel this life doing everything we can to avoid hurting others. How many paintballers are Jewish or of Hebrew descent? How many had grandparents that emigrated from Poland or Germany to America after suffering under the Nazi regime? Had any of them been graced with the experiences dealt out by any one of the many death camps? The thought that none of our paintball bretheren had never sat on the lap of their grandfather as a child to be told the story of how they got the numbers tattooed on their arm is too much to assume.

How can someone be so selfish as to continue with this grievance when they know how it affects the community?

Anyone seeing the modern day "Nazi" or "Aryan" in the media can see that it is a legacy of hate, violence and prejudice. They toss Catholics, Hispanics, Blacks and a wealth of others into the hate pot, along with Jews. Most people don't disassociate Nazi No. 1 from Nazi No. 2. Naturally, this associates paintball "realists" with unpleasant ties. We have worked hard enough to convince people that we are not backwoods militia separatists. What will they think seeing SS uniforms and swastika flags? Our association would be automatic in the public eye.

And what makes me suspect is the verve in which they defend their "right" to display this memorabilia.

Bravo, Kerry and Blue.

[WickedKlown2]

Originally Posted by ace007

Well it's his game, so V can do whatever he wants.....

as a side note, it's kinda funny, but the Japs did some awful stuff too...so bad, some committed suicide rather than be taken prisoner because they assumed they would be tortured for their deeds...but a name & face (like Hitler) is not associated with them, so history kinda lets them off Scott free.

Anyway, back to the German thing: Kinda the hot thing on Junkie for about a year has been a group of people that are really big in to the German thing. Bond Chick is certainly one of the hot things on Junkie. Anyway, I think they are known for recruiting for the D-Day game. I've been curious from the start as to how far they go with it. Then there is the feelings of our Jewish players, who I personally don't want to offend. But again--it's history and a game like that is going to have Germans...

So I find this subject interesting....it's a type of PC to some extent, it seems to me, but not entirely . I think most players are too young to really know much about the nitty-gritty details of WWII & Hitler. I'm not sure that all players would even consider yelling "Heil Hitler" a questionable act-- in fact I'm rather sure that many under the age of 30 would be clueless, especially under the circumstances of a WWII paintball game.

History Lesson: Once you take the Jewish part of it off the table, you are left with just a mean Hitler, who was made possible, and to a great extent, inevitable, by the penalties imposed on Germany at the end of WWI. So unless a player associates Hitler with hating Jews, I really don't see a reason why they would really put a lot of thought in to the actions V is dead-set against. And I'm thinking that many people in general are not really that up on history & Hitler hating Jews, even though, for many of us, it's hard to conceive that everyone isn't in the know on this.

I really like to read the exact reasons people agree with V on this--Is it the Jewish Holocaust or is there more to it than that?

BTW--the whole German thing makes me uneasy for a number of reasons.

ace007,,,

On your question about BondChick and several others of Us that Recruit for the German side at OK D-Day...

We do not believe in the actions of "The Un-named one" or for what he and his Party stood for... We just want to represent the everyday soldier that was pressed into military service and only doing what he was told to do (because a large majority of them did not hold the same beliefs as the "Un-named" Commander and his Party)... We do not allow Swastikas, SS ruins, or the DeathsHead Skull.... We ask players that show up in Uniform for the Parade to Respect Others and what took place during that time (So NO- Goose Steping, Nazi Salutes or Heil "Un-Named One")...

As for the Jewish aspect one of our Players in the 6th FJR, who is also a member here would be able to answer that question better because his Wife is Jewish and understands that we don't play the neo-Nazi bulls**t or put up with it for that matter... Anybody that brings the neo-Nazi crap with them or acts unaccordingly we ask them to leave and not return...

Everygame must have 2 sides and I play for the German to give the Allied someone to fight... If not then it wouldn't be a game....

I hope that helps answers some of you questions about the German Side at OK D-Day....

[ace007]

I appreciate your reply wickedKlown2. I figured what you said was the case.

As for everyone Else's reply, I think I agree with everything that has been said. My dad is A WWII vet; he fought in Europe & was at, among others, the battle of the bulge.

I've always had an interest in WWII for obvious reasons; even did a little collecting as a kid.

We have at least 1 Jewish player on our team & I wouldn't want to make him feel uneasy for anything. Even though I agree with V & EMR on this & also agree with the other comments so far, I still see this as an interesting topic, although technically it was started as an announcement, not a post with a topic up for debate

Why? For several reasons: If you have ever seen Leno do his Jay Walking thing, you know that it's easy to find people who don't know stuff you'd think you could assume everyone knows. Thus, I firmly believe that there are plenty of people who are not fully aware of Hitler & Nazis. Add that to the role playing aspect, & well, I'd never assume anyone doing the banned stuff was trying to be a jerk, not would I look down on them. Perhaps coming to the same conclusion for different reasons, this is why I agree with Crookedbuttdoctor the most. I'm not an expert on German uniforms or even Nazis for that matter. I'd say this--IMO, anything that was part of a official German uniform would be hard to argue against allowing, but I don't know if anything mentioned falls in to that category. Certainly what I understood to be the verbal part of the official German salute has been banned, but maybe that just the stuff of movies. Personally don't understand why that march would upset anyone,

But, there seems to be a differentiation being done between German troops & true Nazis. Ok, fine, but considering the thousands that would stand for hours & listen to a Hitler speech, who weren't even in the military, mmmm, I guess it's just not a distinction I've ever really thought much about. Don't get me wrong, I've realized for years that the average guy in any country's military would rather be anywhere but in a war zone, so that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to, as a general statement, well I set the bar like this: Is the person in question for all intents & purposes a real believer (of their leader, their cause, the effort, the goal, etc.). Except for the holocaust, which I firmly believe the average German disagreed with, I think the average German was a believer back in WWII, but that's just my own impression, so I could be wrong.

I think this whole thing is a good lead in for other things people might find offensive, but when I get time, I'll start a new thread in the appropriate place.

[Dinadin]

I have always felt a bit uneasy with a WWII or any historic themed scenario. It always seems like someone is cashing in on the sacrifices of others. Along with that I would like to say my was a WWII ETO vet and I am just getting into US WWII reenacting, to maybe explain where I am coming from. I have been to only two WWII and one Viet Nam themed scenarios and there was very little history of the actual battle given at the game. Something I would like to see is a historic display of the battle that is being represented. I not saying a full display with weapons and items, but maybe a poster or board with photos, historic facts, and/or a timeline. Most of time players, especially younger ones, just know that there is a game on this date and go to play. I think if you are using an event you should give some credit to what really happened. I have not been to OK D-Day yet, so I don't know if they do anything special.

Personally I feel that wearing the Swastika by a player is a bit disrepectful of what my Grandfather and others sacrificed during the war. I was even taken back a bit at my first reenactment when I saw a large SS unit there. If you are willing to talk about both the good and BAD about who you are representing, then I have more respect for that. While some people are willing to do that, there are others who will wear the Nazi garb just to offend people. For the game promoter it is a safer and wiser decision to ban Nazi items and actions.

Something about Hitler and why so many followed him. He was a very charismatic person and came about in a time of great hardship for the German people and promised to make things better. This is what everyone wanted to hear and so they were willing to believe in him. They believed in him so much so that they were willing to ignore the bad parts. Once realized how bad things were it was too late for most to do anything, because he had all of the power. Because of his actions everything associated with him, no matter how beign, will forever be tarnished. Before WWII while saying the Pledge of Alligence people would hold their hand straight out with the palm up, in a giving gester. That changed after the Nazi's came to power because it looked too much like the Nazi salute and it was changed to putting your hand on your heart.