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  post #11  
Old 10-13-2007, 08:35 AM
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No, here's what happened.

1. Invert makes the Mini with no regulator as the fore grip.
2. Smart Parts see's that they have not patented the design and decides to act quickly. (to the patent cave gardner brothers!)
3. they set up terms that the reason the mini is breaking the rules is because they used a little plastic hose to carry the air....

oh wait...doesnt an autococker, ego, dm, timmy and every other electronic marker on this earth do that too!???

way to fail (again) smart parts. Hopefully this will bring on a whole new level of hate toward them.
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  post #12  
Old 10-13-2007, 10:03 AM
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This may "Torque" most of us but here it is...
GRSP General Rules of Scenerio Play has been pattened.
Any Field Owners who use that set of rules can be sued because of the words contained...if they don't pay the owner of the Pat. More than one person created the GRSP, but only one person "OWNS"it.
Here is another... Did you know that the frase" 24 hour Scenerio" has also been pattened. Thats why you saw certan promoters using the frase "26hr scenerio" in there Wording.
I own several SP markers and other parts but Ill not buy any more from them...because of the way there doing all of us.
SP can just sue them selves out of business...
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  post #13  
Old 10-13-2007, 12:17 PM
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pretty effin gay if you ask me, but they're gonna continue to pull this crap as long as they are permitted to do so. how the hell do you stop something like this?

RED FTW SUCKAS...




1UP Baller fo sho'
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  post #14  
Old 10-13-2007, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by crooked butt doctor View Post
pretty effin gay if you ask me, but they're gonna continue to pull this crap as long as they are permitted to do so. how the hell do you stop something like this?
Many many people have suggested boycotting SP products to get the message across, but this simply won't work due to the fact that they have so many of their dirty little fingers in so many dirty little pies.

SP makes moves like these to stay in business. I honestly think it is the only way they've been able to stay in business seeing as how they've lacked innovation for almost a decade now.

The only way SP will be stopped is when the the paintball community, causes enough noise to get the federal government to step in and take a serious look at the legality of the situation. I guarantee you that you'd be able to dismiss the vast majority of SP patents over the past decade with prior-art alone, you probably wouldn't even need to dive into the physical patents that much to prove that they are simply patenting something that someone else has already produced. The fact of the matter is, SP is taking advantage of the current stance at the USPTO which is, "We are so bogged down with patent applications that we just approve almost everything without research and let the courts figure it out." Until enough noise is made for one of the federal commerce commissions to realize that countless companies are being bilked out of billions over the years by SP, then no one is going to take a look.

The only other option is for the interested parties to set up a not-for-profit watchdog corporation to fight this kind of underhandedness tooth-and-nail wherever it rears it's ugly head in the paintball community.
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  post #15  
Old 10-13-2007, 07:17 PM
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true. well i'll do my part and get rid of all my smart parts stuff. HAHA... that was easy. i don't own any SP stuff. not a fan of their products (although i did like the NXT shocker) anyway, and now that i see that they have pretty shady ethics, i'll continue not to.

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  post #16  
Old 10-13-2007, 11:06 PM
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That is kind of like saying anything that has a barrel screwed on it I have the rights to it if anyone else makes one with a few options its mine pay me, come on Sp give it a break if you need something to do enforce map pricing and help out a few honest dealers.

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  post #17  
Old 10-14-2007, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallen702 View Post
Many many people have suggested boycotting SP products to get the message across, but this simply won't work due to the fact that they have so many of their dirty little fingers in so many dirty little pies.

SP makes moves like these to stay in business. I honestly think it is the only way they've been able to stay in business seeing as how they've lacked innovation for almost a decade now.
Boycotting might work, but it would have to start at the grassroots and grow from there. The reason SP has been able to survive is they take much of these "ill-gotten" gains and turn this immediately into sponsorships. "AGG" pB dorks will not turn this junk down and the cycle continues. Product placement my friends. With the NPPL going down the tubes, the sponsorships may not mean as much....maybe we have a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallen702 View Post
The only way SP will be stopped is when the the paintball community, causes enough noise to get the federal government to step in and take a serious look at the legality of the situation. I guarantee you that you'd be able to dismiss the vast majority of SP patents over the past decade with prior-art alone, you probably wouldn't even need to dive into the physical patents that much to prove that they are simply patenting something that someone else has already produced. The fact of the matter is, SP is taking advantage of the current stance at the USPTO which is, "We are so bogged down with patent applications that we just approve almost everything without research and let the courts figure it out." Until enough noise is made for one of the federal commerce commissions to realize that countless companies are being bilked out of billions over the years by SP, then no one is going to take a look.

The only other option is for the interested parties to set up a not-for-profit watchdog corporation to fight this kind of underhandedness tooth-and-nail wherever it rears it's ugly head in the paintball community.
Interesting, but I don't see gov't interaction here. It isn't a topic that can bring about much emotion, therefore no interest. Really, the approach is to come from the angle of the "broken patent system". This is bigger than PB, could gain political steam with such an issue that defies the capitalist American dream. If patent law in all markets resemble this joke, then slowly we erode the innovation and ingenuity that makes the capitalist system great, slowly drifting into the socialist/communist regime, where these traits are squashed. People will stop creating if they know if will immediately be taken away from them. Gov't, lawyers, corps, doesn't matter. This is how we go about it. FIX THE PATENT SYSTEM IN AMERICA! It needs to be taken out of the lawyers hands, like much in America, it should not be who has the most money and can survive the court battle the longest.

The SP guys are patent lawyers and know the loopholes in the system. PB isn't the only market suffering from the problem. If SP can continue this trend, we will slowly slide into a oligarchy and finally a monopoly in the PB market. This will kill PB itself, or it will return to its origins. PB isn't the only game in town.....Airsoft anyone. PB manufacturers better be careful...






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  post #18  
Old 10-14-2007, 01:02 PM
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Alas, one thing is consistant; The lawyers will win, yet, again.

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because I like being ANGRY!
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  post #19  
Old 10-14-2007, 02:49 PM
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Someone will probably yell at me, but the reason Smart Parts continues to do what they do and make lots of money which they do... ready? 99% of the product that they make is good, operates properly, and is within the price range of the people buying it. (1% = Epiph..grrrujshddll;.)

Now, all of the other obvious things that I challenge SP on aside, (Patentgators, selectively unenforced MAP, etc), you can't argue with success. Let's see. The Shocker, the SFT Shocker, The NXT Shocker. ALL guns that were into their time. Meaning, the "Shoe Box" was an incredible gun for it's time and was purchased and used by mega-gobs of players. Same goes for SFT and NXT. The Impulse was an excellent marker and lot of people bought it for the same reasons. Their markers were GOOD.

In steps the marker that revolutionizes the paintball industry, puts some major industry players on the skids, and shoots the first bullet into Bud Orr that just about ruins WGP; (the second being Eclipse killing the E-series frames). If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's the ION. When it was originally released, with a street price of $299 for one of four colors, players were prostituting themselves on Sunset Blvd to get their hands on them. SP was shipping the guns UN-assembled to dealers so they could assemble them and get them to customers. (Enter a guy whose name rhymes with "honey" and he made SLOBBERY amt's of cash by brokering these things, as HE had the orders in to SP). SP refused to place limits on the orders so if you weren't a big dealer like "Smacktion Township", you got diddley until the fat guys were sated. All in all it was marketing and economic GENIUS!

Who wants to spend $349 bucks on a base Cocker when you can buy an electropneumatic well-made marker for $299? And after the first 9 months to a year, WHAM! the death knell tolled when they lowered the price of the kicky little thing to street sell for $199! They locked up the low end of the market with pure genius. (Despite WGP's dismal attempt at the low end with the Trilogy! not upgradable vs a most upgradable gun)

Will players who are pissed at them for their patent escapades have any effect on their sales? Not a chance. It sounds great, and as a principle thing, it is wonderful. But a couple of things come up. Fact one, PEOPLE WANT TO BUY THEIR STUFF AND DON'T CARE WHAT THEY DO. Fact two, merchants who sell SP product are not going to stop selling SP products because of their patent escapades. We have a pro shop and we sell the Hell out of Ions, Shockers, Freak kits and more. We do it because their products are good and we need to make our store profitable to make a living and keep it open. Nevermind the fact that our customers WANT it. But that returns to Fact one.

Do I detest what they do when it comes to the legal/patent shenanigans? Absolutely. But if you're working for Microsoft and Bill Gates is arrested for visiting a hooker, do you quit because you don't believe in hookers? You have to make a living so you don't worry about it. Bill's probably got some great babes! Seriously, it sounds great and principally it may be the right thing, but it will never happen. And the key phrase is this:

LOTS OF MONEY - LOTS OF POWER - LOTS OF INFLUENCE - LOTS OF LAWYERS.

I know that some will not agree, but I love this discussion and that's my 0.02!

Pierce "L'il Jester" Sharai 1988-2008 JES-Personal BLOG! JES-PBJ Industry BLOG
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  post #20  
Old 10-14-2007, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gfgjester View Post
Someone will probably yell at me,
Well, I'm new here, but I'm pretty sure this isn't PBN, so I doubt it

Quote:
but the reason Smart Parts continues to do what they do and make lots of money which they do... ready? 99% of the product that they make is good, operates properly, and is within the price range of the people buying it. (1% = Epiph..grrrujshddll;.)
Here is where I'm going to disagree with you to some extent. I think what you have there is a rather conditional statement. While yes, some of the products they make are in fact good, I certainly wouldn't say 99% of them are when compared to products of an equal cost. Take their barrels for instance. Freak kit aside, when you compare the quality of the AA, Progressive, or Tactical with other barrels in the price range, they pale in comparison. I'd rather throw a LAPCO or J&J on my markers any day. I've always had consistent performance of a high caliber out of them whereas SP barrels (in my experience) have not performed to as high a spec. I also notice that when I'm out at the field, the majority of persons who have to call the day early because of issues with their markers are the people using Ions. Yes, it's inexpensive and for the price, operates at an acceptable level on average, but I'd hardly say that it performs well compared to other markers in the same price range. Again, it's a subjective argument that comes down to the end-user/observer's experiences.

Quote:
Now, all of the other obvious things that I challenge SP on aside, (Patentgators, selectively unenforced MAP, etc), you can't argue with success. Let's see. The Shocker, the SFT Shocker, The NXT Shocker. ALL guns that were into their time. Meaning, the "Shoe Box" was an incredible gun for it's time and was purchased and used by mega-gobs of players. Same goes for SFT and NXT. The Impulse was an excellent marker and lot of people bought it for the same reasons. Their markers were GOOD.
The area where I spent my college years saw little to no use of Shockers or Imps the entire time I was there (98-2002) which I found to be due to the fact that they tended to be temperamental little SOBs compared to the other electros that ruled the market in the NE. Namely Angel LED/LCDs, Intimidators, E-Matrices,and Bushmaster 2Ks. I couldn't keep Angels on the wall, but I couldn't give away the shocker 4x4 Turbo that I had up there. Again, I think the perception of "tons" of these markers selling (at least in that time period) is up for interpretation. I will say that I found WDP, Matrix-series, and ICD electros a lot easier to work on as well.


Quote:
In steps the marker that revolutionizes the paintball industry, puts some major industry players on the skids, and shoots the first bullet into Bud Orr that just about ruins WGP; (the second being Eclipse killing the E-series frames). If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's the ION. When it was originally released, with a street price of $299 for one of four colors, players were prostituting themselves on Sunset Blvd to get their hands on them. SP was shipping the guns UN-assembled to dealers so they could assemble them and get them to customers. (Enter a guy whose name rhymes with "honey" and he made SLOBBERY amt's of cash by brokering these things, as HE had the orders in to SP). SP refused to place limits on the orders so if you weren't a big dealer like "Smacktion Township", you got diddley until the fat guys were sated. All in all it was marketing and economic GENIUS!

Who wants to spend $349 bucks on a base Cocker when you can buy an electropneumatic well-made marker for $299? And after the first 9 months to a year, WHAM! the death knell tolled when they lowered the price of the kicky little thing to street sell for $199! They locked up the low end of the market with pure genius. (Despite WGP's dismal attempt at the low end with the Trilogy! not upgradable vs a most upgradable gun)
Now on this, I agree. The Ion did start hammering nails into coffins rather succinctly. I think everyone from Orr down to BE have felt the repercussions of the first "cheap" electro-pneumatic marker. It has been what they have done to maintain that kind of a lead, however, that makes the company unethical. If you look at what this patent app is implying, they are going after their main source of competition not by building a better product for cheaper, but by trying to get an over-loaded patent office to grandfather a new amendment on an old patent to stop the Invert Mini from being produced. This is EXACTLY what is happening. They call on their own prior art to try and grandfather this particular app in so that they can then shut down the Mini which, despite SP's marketing firm, has grabbed the hearts and minds of the agg kiddies that are the capital force behind today's paintball economics. Invert just built a better package and put it out for a little more than an Ion. I personally think the Epiphany was built to counter the Mini, but without any kind of new innovation, it is failing to do so. Now with Kevin Rayman's untimely death I wonder if they will be able to continue down the path that they started with the re-imaging of the company in 2002.


On the last part, I agree. A grass-roots movement won't work. They never do in all reality. At best you can make some noise and get some media attention, but unless you have the powers that be playing on your side, that is all you will achieve. Kids who go to PBN and read all the magazines out there get blitzed with SP ads, of course they're going to want their products. The only way SP will be stopped from continuing to put other companies out of business via the patent law loop-holes will be through legal or governmental intervention.

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