Smart Parts is at it again

[crooked butt doctor]

its not often that we have a good intelligent discussion here about something other than politics.
i'm tickled pink.
i agree 100% that the mass boycott, protest tactic will not beget much success. i am sure that the boys down at SP are well aware that their ethics are shady, and even more aware that many of us disagree with them. but in the end, the POWER that we refer to, the powers that be, lie in the dollar.

we will never be able to put a dent in SP's profits at this level. the only way for SP to feel the heat, is for another company to drop a better product. Invert did that, and the PB community responded. i still don't know anybody with an epiphany. we have 7 minis on our team.

smart parts lost the market, and now they are using unethical methods to regain control. the ONLY way to stop these guys is to hope that the government denies their patent app, or that kee action sports has a good set of lawyers as well. how perfect would it be to see the industry as a whole unite at the corporate level and fight the smart parts patent fraud bullshit.

either way... i really feel like there is little or nothing i can do, so i will just continue to play, and continue not to use any SP products.

[gfgjester]

I can only offer this in response... (And it's just my opinion as a player, press, field and proshop owner/operator and Factory Certified Smart Parts Tech). They HAD to be doing something right or they wouldn't have sold so many of their (insert product name here). In turn, if they wouldn't be selling so many of the (insert product name here) they wouldn't have the buttloads of money they have now.

I'm trying to think of another electropneumatic marker that sells for $199 that offers better performance at that price. My first thought was an A-5, but then we go back to a manual marker. Adding an e-grip would skew the price factor. Spyder VS-2/3? Nah. We could go back and forth all day. We also need to take into consideration location and personal choices. Where I think the best bang for the buck is a Freak System that is essentially 8 barrels in one for $150, others think another barrel is better. Essentially your statement is very much on the noggin'. But what works with the players in South Louisiana may not do bupkus for the guys in California.

Again, it's a subjective argument that comes down to the end-user/observer's experiences.

I could work on ION's all day long and hum doing it. They are extremely easy to work on and have only a few points where something can go wrong and prevent to gun from operating. The big problems I find are 1. Dumbassity - Operator thinks it would be really cool to mess with the programming of the gun while not having the slightest idea what an instruction manual is, short of using one for his cat's bedding or thinks that if 140psi operating pressure is good, then 290psi operating pressure must be great!; and 2. "Pig-Pen" Syndrome - Lube? Uh...huh-huh-huh-huh. He said Q-Tip. Uhhh, Does Dow make a 35, cause that's higher?

Again, your statement rings true.

Again, it's a subjective argument that comes down to the end-user/observer's experiences.

And I say again, excellent conversation/debate, Tallen!
Nixxer, Virtue's got a board out for your Mini!

[SirRod]

I like my Ion it is easy to work on and SP is always there with the tech support. I also have an Impulse which has been my main marker and never broken a ball since Ive owned it 2001.
I also have the full freak kit bought it on ebay.
Ya know we always do what we say were not going to do.
I would love to have a shocker.

[Litespeed]

Originally Posted by tallen702

Well, I'm new here, but I'm pretty sure this isn't PBN, so I doubt it


Here is where I'm going to disagree with you to some extent. I think what you have there is a rather conditional statement. While yes, some of the products they make are in fact good, I certainly wouldn't say 99% of them are when compared to products of an equal cost. Take their barrels for instance. Freak kit aside, when you compare the quality of the AA, Progressive, or Tactical with other barrels in the price range, they pale in comparison. I'd rather throw a LAPCO or J&J on my markers any day. I've always had consistent performance of a high caliber out of them whereas SP barrels (in my experience) have not performed to as high a spec. I also notice that when I'm out at the field, the majority of persons who have to call the day early because of issues with their markers are the people using Ions. Yes, it's inexpensive and for the price, operates at an acceptable level on average, but I'd hardly say that it performs well compared to other markers in the same price range. Again, it's a subjective argument that comes down to the end-user/observer's experiences.

I'm not going to argue barrels, and I don't like to argue products for I believe the real arguement is SPs ability to short circuit the free market, but I completely agree with the comments below...

Originally Posted by tallen702

The area where I spent my college years saw little to no use of Shockers or Imps the entire time I was there (98-2002) which I found to be due to the fact that they tended to be temperamental little SOBs compared to the other electros that ruled the market in the NE. Namely Angel LED/LCDs, Intimidators, E-Matrices,and Bushmaster 2Ks. I couldn't keep Angels on the wall, but I couldn't give away the shocker 4x4 Turbo that I had up there. Again, I think the perception of "tons" of these markers selling (at least in that time period) is up for interpretation. I will say that I found WDP, Matrix-series, and ICD electros a lot easier to work on as well.

I've owned, and still own ICD bushmasters, and they always outperformed most Shockers and Impulses on the field. Worked with them all. Was that due to care and superior maintenance? Maybe to an extent, but both those lines were very temperamental and actually cost MORE than a bushy in those days. Bushmaster's weren't given the moniker "poor mans' Angel" for nothing. SP merchandise was not flying off the walls, nope, they were being beaten in the competitive market and had to resort to "bending the rules" with that patent hackjob back in 04. The Impulse was on the same playing field as the Bushy, but out of the box, found wanting. The old ShoeBox Shockers didn't compete until the newer generations. I always loved that SP would force you to pick between a semi or turbo. WTH? Around this time, culminating in 03, most teams/groups were dropping SP like the plague going to Bob Long, ICD, etc...SP was losing ground. Tons of great Bushmaster's from that time period. Shocktech, bonebrake. The Defiant and the MacDev Cyborg was basically a Bushy.

gfgjester, this is where most of your production/sales arguments fail. By the time of the ION, the dust was already settling from the last patent game, and SP didn't have much competition that wasn't already caving into them for licensing agreements.

Originally Posted by tallen702

Now on this, I agree. The Ion did start hammering nails into coffins rather succinctly. I think everyone from Orr down to BE have felt the repercussions of the first "cheap" electro-pneumatic marker. It has been what they have done to maintain that kind of a lead, however, that makes the company unethical. If you look at what this patent app is implying, they are going after their main source of competition not by building a better product for cheaper, but by trying to get an over-loaded patent office to grandfather a new amendment on an old patent to stop the Invert Mini from being produced. This is EXACTLY what is happening. They call on their own prior art to try and grandfather this particular app in so that they can then shut down the Mini which, despite SP's marketing firm, has grabbed the hearts and minds of the agg kiddies that are the capital force behind today's paintball economics. Invert just built a better package and put it out for a little more than an Ion. I personally think the Epiphany was built to counter the Mini, but without any kind of new innovation, it is failing to do so. Now with Kevin Rayman's untimely death I wonder if they will be able to continue down the path that they started with the re-imaging of the company in 2002.

The ION did hurt Orr and BE, but...

gfgjester, you want a marker in the ION range that is a higher quality marker? Well, back on the ICD bandwagon, i would have picked an ICD promaster over a ION, or even a BKO over the ION even before the promaster appeared. Higher quality markers, but I'll save that argument for another day. You might sell a bunch of them, but they just don't stand the test of time. I will save you a comparison argument, but i've never been a fan of exposed coil type markers. gfgjester, seems like you work on a myriad of markers, so I don't want to start a flame war. There are +/- either way, just think the ICD markers pulled out the edge. Again, if ICD wasn't forced to stop making Bushmaster due to the licensing, there likely would not have been a Promaster, but i digress.

I will reiterate, my actual argument isn't against SP products, but rather their circumnavigating the fair market policy of competition through patent law. Why? I guess they don't believe in their products. SPs mantra, "Can't beat them, force them to pay licensing!" SP, why don't we let the "market" decide who builds a better marker?

Originally Posted by tallen702

On the last part, I agree. A grass-roots movement won't work. They never do in all reality. At best you can make some noise and get some media attention, but unless you have the powers that be playing on your side, that is all you will achieve. Kids who go to PBN and read all the magazines out there get blitzed with SP ads, of course they're going to want their products. The only way SP will be stopped from continuing to put other companies out of business via the patent law loop-holes will be through legal or governmental intervention.

Sad but true. Again, as long a poor teenage punks will accept sponsorships, and businesses will pump out the SP product, this will be the trend. However, I only see the flooding of the market with IONs, cockers, ect.. only hurting their respective companies, which I guess brings us back to SP and their patent games.

Hey gfgjester, not calling you out upon reviewing this, just rebutting some of those arguments. This is how history sits with me...

[gfgjester]

Oh please, Litespeed! It's great to have some stimulating and intelligent discussion going on here. I completely respect your viewpoints. It's a tribute to Junkies, as far as I can see. Everyone is throwing our some pretty good opinions and info. I'm still thinking that what tallen said is true.

Again, it's a subjective argument that comes down to the end-user/observer's experiences.

Down here, ICD is basically non-existent. We sold a few BK2, BK2K, BKO's and even a ProMaster. They just weren't very popular. And my experience is that we ended up having to send a lot of their markers back to them for repairs. We just got one back that actually had the body milled wrong. But that kind of stuff is not confined to ICD. Personally, I don't think ICD will ever quite recover from the SP attack. Kee doesn't seem to push them much. But just like most of the rest of what I've said, it's my opinion.

As it stands right now, the Gardners are still peeking out from the dust cloud of these patent & marketing/sales wars. Again, I say that I hate the way it has gone down. My point was that there is just no way that anything will happen to change things by boycotting their products. People are always going to buy the best they can for the least of cash and SP seems to be fulfilling that need right now. As a business owner, am I going to hang an Ion on the wall that will sell in a day or two? Or do I hang an ICD marker that takes a month to sell? You know what the answer to that is. It's impossible for us to cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Anyway, great discussion. Junkies are the best when it comes to showing we CAN do it without a flame war.

PS, hope you're going to be at Bear Claw. Would like to meet you F2F!

[Chappy]

I remember when i was a big fan of smart parts but that was way back in the day when they only made barrels. remember mowing lawns for weeks to save up for a AA barrel for my traccer. I got out of paint ball before smartparts was even making markers. When i got back into the sport the Ion had been out for a year. The Ion was my first electronic marker, was cheap and worked, upgrade everything but the frame then sold it for my mag . Had a PL shocker (pain in the ass marker) sold it for another mag. Markers are all personal not everyone fits everybody. Smartparts makes some good stuff but thats not the problems with them. There problem is Marketing and patents. while i dont use any smartparts gear anymore i will still show the new player the ion as a great starter marker.

[Litespeed]

Originally Posted by gfgjester

Oh please, Litespeed! It's great to have some stimulating and intelligent discussion going on here. I completely respect your viewpoints. It's a tribute to Junkies, as far as I can see. Everyone is throwing our some pretty good opinions and info. I'm still thinking that what tallen said is true.

Thanks for understanding, my anger was not directly towards you personally. Great conversation all around. There is a great thread on McB as well.

Originally Posted by gfgjester

Down here, ICD is basically non-existent. We sold a few BK2, BK2K, BKO's and even a ProMaster. They just weren't very popular. And my experience is that we ended up having to send a lot of their markers back to them for repairs. We just got one back that actually had the body milled wrong. But that kind of stuff is not confined to ICD. Personally, I don't think ICD will ever quite recover from the SP attack. Kee doesn't seem to push them much. But just like most of the rest of what I've said, it's my opinion.

Actually I agree with you completely. The later model Bushmasters (all the b2k4s) were built overseas, same for 04 BKOs. All the Promaster line was overseas as well. This stems from SP twofold. Change in design due to 04 patent suit and trying to pick up marketshare of the IONs, cockers, etc.. Wasn't the Promaster sold through KEE? That is probably enough said.

Believe me, my older BKOs and Bushies are quite the contrary. American made to high quality specs. My B2k4 wasn't bad, but Promaster's and Lasoya Promasters had problems. I'm not a real fan of the Promaster hosed design, but again, they had no choice after the 04 suit and had to change the Bushmaster platform. I'm not just an ICD fanboy, I have PPS markers, an Automag, and a M98 to go with my ICD collection. I have an older Bushmaster and BKO that I love, and currently getting a GS Bushmaster built up. Got the body from GregICD himself. Always loved the "Cat Family" of ICD markers including the Desert Fox, which was a blowforward worked with Tom Kaye Automag with no patent war. But most of the nineties it was just a different world with all the companies.

Originally Posted by gfgjester

As it stands right now, the Gardners are still peeking out from the dust cloud of these patent & marketing/sales wars. Again, I say that I hate the way it has gone down. My point was that there is just no way that anything will happen to change things by boycotting their products. People are always going to buy the best they can for the least of cash and SP seems to be fulfilling that need right now. As a business owner, am I going to hang an Ion on the wall that will sell in a day or two? Or do I hang an ICD marker that takes a month to sell? You know what the answer to that is. It's impossible for us to cut our noses off to spite our faces.

Anyway, great discussion. Junkies are the best when it comes to showing we CAN do it without a flame war.

PS, hope you're going to be at Bear Claw. Would like to meet you F2F!

Hey, I buy stuff at WAL-MART too . I think they should paint the stores Red, but that is just me...LOL I buy cheap too...

gfgjester, i'll be at BearClaw, i'll be with the RidgeRunners this go round if RJ will have me. I sure enjoy the conversation as well. Look me up....

[JesterTLS]

Originally Posted by gfgjester

I'm trying to think of another electropneumatic marker that sells for $199 that offers better performance at that price.

I have to agree with the Promaster over the Ion. Awesome reviews in pbreview and it isnt an SP product. I've used my friends. Needs a good force feed hopper, it didnt like my revvy, but it shoots good, not to difficult to maintain, and its cheap. It will be my next marker purchase. That or a nice used DM4 or DM5. But its hard to find the DM's in the same price range that are still in good shape. I dont mind highly used markers, but I have a learning curve with maintanance on these electros, especially ones that have been modded all to hades which is the norm.

I dont like SP's practices and dont use their products. If someone wants to use their stuff, its their money and they have a right to give it to whom ever. They'll not get mine. I dont support SP just like I dont support RAP4. Now you want to open a can of worms and piss people off, bash RAP4 and watch the supported pop up. But they rename and jack up prices on darn near every thing. Granted, they like to sponsor people which is good. But just call a marker by its name. I do have to hand it to them. They get $100 more out of some of these markers then MSRP. If people are dumb enough to toss you their money when they could have kept some of that, got the same thing else where, it aint your fault their stupid.



The bottom line is this, no matter if you like them or dislike them, your not gonna sway the other side on this issue.

[tallen702]

Originally Posted by gfgjester

I can only offer this in response... (And it's just my opinion as a player, press, field and proshop owner/operator and Factory Certified Smart Parts Tech). They HAD to be doing something right or they wouldn't have sold so many of their (insert product name here). In turn, if they wouldn't be selling so many of the (insert product name here) they wouldn't have the buttloads of money they have now.

Here's a thought on the SP sales time-line. Go pull "Push" out of your VHS pile that you have stacked in your garage/basement/attic and pop it in. How many Shockers or Imps do you see? It's the '99 World Cup. after all, and I see plenty of Angels a few ICD markers and a ton of 'cockers, but virtually no shoe-boxes or imps (I don't think I see any actually!) This is the creme-de-la-creme we're talking about, right when SP should have been taking the market by storm and should have been represented in the World Cup... I mean, seriously, the All Americans were playing that year, but they were probably some of the only ones using the Shocker. If the product was that good, why then, when teams weren't locked into using a particular marker as much as they are now, wouldn't more of them be using shockers if they were really of that great a quality? Just a thought I had as I was watching the coverage from Sunday's Millennium Cup match at Euro Disney.

And I agree, btw, about this being a wonderful conversation! Definitely beat correcting erroneous information over on the Tippmann forums all day.

[JesterTLS]

Tallen, I gave up on Tippmann's forum a long time ago.