Scenario Reffing : Spies

[DMmasta]

Originally Posted by thumper

(does he always whine like that?)

sadly so... you get used to it after a while, its annoying dont get me wrong but he is self centered and thinks that this somehoow involves him(which it doesnt)... but theres no use in fighting him... he just whines more

haha pmed you thump

[Grendel]

This is something I was commenting over on Paintball Charleston's Forum:

Originally Posted by bluemidget123

As far as the reffing goes, when i've reffed at scenarios, it's hard to make the necessary calls discretely when a spy is concerned. It's all a judgement call and the players, in my opinion, have no right to tell the refs to be quiet. They can request they not give their plans away but the refs need to act how they feel necessary.

You are most definitely correct. It is hard many times to make the necessary calls when involving "spies" in the game. It is the job of the Referees to make good sound judgement to ensure the safe, unbiased and unobtrusive calls are made. If it is between those three things when making a call always default to make the safety call over the other two. Next make sure your call is unbiased to the outcome of the game and third make your calls fairly and firmly but if you can keep from giving the "spy" away you should. Reffing is not always easy and sometime can be very frustrating but if you know the rules [all of the rules for the game] and you make your calls with some "common sense" it makes it a lot easier.

Eliminated players have to indicate they are out, that is undebatable. No one says you have to scream it though. You have to get that gun up, get out of cover, get that blocking device on, head off the field and you can call yourself out but I've never been anywhere where it is the rules you have to yell "I'm out" or "eliminated Player"...etc. What I've seen in the rules is if you SAY those things you are indicating you are out. If you are eliminated by someone beinging sneak, whether it is a spy or not, you have to indicate you are eliminated and get off the field but try to give the player who work so hard some courtesy of walking off without intentionally giving them away.

[thumper]

Scenario Reffing : Spies : how to deal with them
By Steers - Team Section8 with contributions as noted.
1.21.2007

One of the greatest tragedies in scenario paintball might be when a player has created a masterpiece in which he/she is walking among the enemy and planning to disrupt and/or eliminate important targets and the referee rats them out.

Spies are a unique aspect of the game and in many ways helps the referees understand just what one player is capable of doing. Being a spy doesn’t necessarily mean that you are allowed to wear enemy tape and hold an enemy card. In the game, especially night, one player can wreak havoc with mission teams and base security and so much depends on the cooperation and trust with refs.

Things to remember at a scenario with or without spies:

1. As the ref, you have been placed higher than the player, that is, to judge and monitor. You are expected to be friendly but mainly to be professional. This entails you not allowing any player to hear your radio chatter or giving them hints that would lead to points being taken or given on any one side. Have you ever heard of a judge telling a contestant how to win? Of course not, that is cheating and so is this.

2. At times, it is necessary for you to act quickly. When the player approaches a ref and informs him of his/her intentions, the ref must take great care in what he/she does at that point. Talking on radios risks a new ref from shooting his mouth off and not paying attention could cause the plan to fail. For example: when a player intends to barrel tag several players by slowly working up a line, as the ref, you must work quickly and diligently by removing eliminated players from the line. Thumper adds: "REF : BE READY - when the group discovers the player is an enemy all hell may break loose."

** Dead men don't talk **

3. Plain and simple, if you rat out a player because you are a base ref or referee working closely with any one side, you have cheated and cannot handle the responsibility that you have been given. If the player is doing an effective job, then let him/her do it and later congratulate them for their work. If the enemy player is ignorant, then that is their down fall and you as the ref MUST let them learn the lesson. Unless they ask about the rules, you are not to instruct in the process of their demise.

Obviously, if you hear of a player getting ready to do something sneaky, be cool about it and do not let on. The only thing that spy needs is for you to act at the opportune moment and allow him/her to do what they came to do.

In most cases, you are grim reaper and it is your job to silence players and get them out before the others know what it going on.

...Contributions follow...

Brian Odgers adds: "As a ref, during night games I'd often be a mission ref. Something I would do when I was on a mission, is tuck my chem light into my shirt hiding it from view. Nothing will attract players like a ref just sitting in some strange place for no apparent reason. I think the refs should try to treat the players as they would like to be treated. Radio turned down, no noise, limited lights... If a firefight started I'd pull the Chem light out so folks could see I was a ref..."

Traakon adds: "There is a reason why being a good scenario spy is difficult, just as in real life, everyone suspects and the smallest flaw turns you out and that flaw should be the players not the officials."

Mstrtal adds : "If a player comes up to you at night with a question or concern please do NOT shine your flashlight on them. Whether they are in or out becomes mote at this point. You shine a lite on them and you give their position away to every single player in line of site."

Grendel adds : "It is hard many times to make the necessary calls when involving "spies" in the game. It is the job of the Referees to make good sound judgement to ensure the safe, unbiased and unobtrusive calls are made. If it is between those three things when making a call always default to make the safety call over the other two. Next make sure your call is unbiased to the outcome of the game and third make your calls fairly and firmly but if you can keep from giving the "spy" away you should. Reffing is not always easy and sometime can be very frustrating but if you know the rules [all of the rules for the game] and you make your calls with some "common sense" it makes it a lot easier."

Grendel adds : "Eliminated players have to indicate they are out, that is undebatable. No one says you have to scream it though. You have to get that gun up, get out of cover, get that blocking device on, head off the field and you can call yourself out but I've never been anywhere where it is the rules you have to yell "I'm out" or "eliminated Player"...etc. What I've seen in the rules is if you SAY those things you are indicating you are out. If you are eliminated by someone beinging sneak, whether it is a spy or not, you have to indicate you are eliminated and get off the field but try to give they player who work so hard some courtesy of walking off without intentionally giving them away."

MCB poster adds : "A good spy knows which refs to stay away from. If the staff sucks, don't even bother being a spy."

Thumper adds :
>>Examples of spy-like tricks to look for:

*** A guy delivering a pizza to a base ref for example - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing.. pizza gets dropped near base and kablooy...(cautiously look signs that he is eliminated, or an active player i.e, visible face tape or arm band tape, visible player card -- refer to official game rules - do not give away the player when making this determination)

*** A guy with a disposable camera taking pics behind enemy lines - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing....

*** A guy is invited in at night by your base security staff because your head of security overheard a radio transmission by the base ref stating he was on your side...

*** A guy complaining he losts his car keys and wants to look in your base...lol - who happens to be an active enemy player with all the tapes showing....

*** A spy wants to be non-threatening. Acting non-threatening isn't cheating - its part of the role the spy must play.

*** Once the player signals out in anyway - he is out, he must plug his marker, hold it up and get off the field, if not thats a dead mans walk.. (see dead official dead mans walk rules)

*** If the spy has a satchel charge and uses it - it's use must comply w/ satchel charge rules (i.e., possibly demo player card, card in satchel -- see official game rules)

*** If the spy is marked with blue tape, and you are base ref at blue base - and the spy blows up the blue base - there may be specific rules under which the player can legally have the blue tape - or he may be breaking the rules. It is your job to know the rules regarding this in advance.

[SirRod]

Guys I'v been on all three sides of this aspect of spys!
Ive been a spy, A Ref. and Base Security, defending aginst spys.
Plus I'v been a producer of scenario games involving spys.

The grey areas outside of the rules, usually encompass unknown cercomstances not covered by the rules.

As a little league, Soccer Coach with Two State Licences and a Little league baseball coach.

In the coaching rule books there is a clause that states" Anything not covered by the rulebook is at the descression of the umpire nearest to the infraction". Every situeation dosn't have a solution.

A long time ago at the old "Survival Zone" I was base security. I noticed a player with "NO" repeat "NO" marker. Had no reason to even be where he was. Well I scrutinised him intently noticing him setting on top of the command bunker. Then talking to the base Ref. whom then said the base had been blown.
I then realized that this player with no marker was indeed our sapper who distroyed our base....We got him!

One point I'd like to make about using "Photographers" as agents.
It puts a bad light on "ALL CAMERA TOATING Players". During D-D last year some camera people were used as spies and the lagitment photographers were shot to pieces thinking they were gathering tactical Information....its not a good thing.

Point of intrest, If im barrel tagged at night im going to scream my head off "HIT" as much as I want too, there is nothing in the rules about eleminated players reporting that there "HIT" espically at night.
Another point of intrest. At BBB there were players barrel tagging players with a PGP. To barrel tag a player to eliminate them you must use a barrel 8" or longer....Thats According to the GRSP.
All in all great thread interesting thread....

[Steers]

My apologies to those here and on pbc thread. I typed it all in one sitting and may have failed to mention somthing that was on my mind, but hey, that is why thumper and grendel keep me inline. !
sorry for any misunderstanding.

[crooked butt doctor]

if a spy gets the drop on me, i will quietly exit the field and comply... if he has the balls, brains, and skills to punk me out- my hats off to him. why be a dick and yell out?? and yeah, they say to call yourself out.... but every person here knows DAMN WELL that is so that you let other active players know not to shoot you. if a spy is barrel tagging, then odds are, there is little or no shooting whatsoever... therefore, there is NO reason for shouting HIT or OUT aside from communicating with your remaining LIVE teammates AFTER you have been eliminated. in my eyes that is borderline dishonesty and bending of the rules to **** over another player's job well done. its bull****.... i'll be the first to acknowledge my defeat, and i'd never tarnish a great play by pulling some shady bullshit like shouting "out" to alert my boys. i'd just have faith that they'd be more alert than i was, and they'd kill the spy.

and for those that do not know me, i am FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from spy material. there is no bias here. but i recognize the time spent on planning, the time spent executing, the care and craft that scenario spies must employ to successfully infiltrate a complacent defense. i have personally been that very defender... made to look stupid... i could do nothing but laugh. i agree 100% that the eliminated player and ref should try not to hinder forward progress, while still operating as much within the rules and remaining as neutral as possible.

[thumper]

Hollering "OUT" to notify friendlys of a spy in the base... Ide say likely ok according to the rules, but certainly lacking aspects of sportsmanship.

Nice post nix.. Ill try and grab a comment or something in there for the official copy - cause you are my hero!!!

[Steers]

Originally Posted by thumper

Hollering "OUT" to notify friendlys of a spy in the base... Ide say likely ok according to the rules, but certainly lacking aspects of sportsmanship.

Nice post nix.. Ill try and grab a comment or something in there for the official copy - cause you are my hero!!!

In a base, I would personally expect that; like you said, as soon as you act, your dead, but on a trail, that is what I am primarily refering to.

It doesn't even have to be a barrel tag. At Leyte, I wanted to take advantage of the "if you feel the ball, then you are out" rule ...you know what I'm talking about LOL !

[Mr.Aggsauce]

why not make a rule where u have to close your eyes when u get barrel tagged by a spy?? in real life if a spy were to do u in the back you wouldnt be alive long enough to see him.

that way a player who was killed by the spy couldnt go reincarnate and then tell everyone who the spy was. we could just agree not to peak for like 10 seconds or maybe have the refs lead you blindly off the field. :double dodgy:

[Steers]

Originally Posted by Mr.Aggsauce

why not make a rule where u have to close your eyes when u get barrel tagged by a spy?? in real life if a spy were to do u in the back you wouldnt be alive long enough to see him.

that way a player who was killed by the spy couldnt go reincarnate and then tell everyone who the spy was. we could just agree not to peak for like 10 seconds or maybe have the refs lead you blindly off the field. :double dodgy:

AT night, it won't matter, you won't seem even if you are alive. So elequently put by Nix, the shout out of "I'm out" after being shot is there for the sake of avoiding any unpleasant cases of overshooting. At night, that rule can be taken advantage of but is considered butwholish . The player just has to leave quietly and it is totally likely that the spy/predator will quietly ask the player to quietly leave but for those that may be knew or ignorant of what to do when surprised like that in the bush, the ref is there to escort them away.