in tourny its the reff job to check you

playing on his playing with an obvious hit on you like on your face

Rocking the Pm7 and Etek
Hate tourny but i play it anyways...
Love scenario but dont go that often

The common deal with refs

It seems to me that often times (not specifically speaking of any field/promoter) fields will grab who ever they can in order to have a sufficient reffing staff on board and this is a hinderance for scenario players.
Those that do not know the rules really shouldn't be there. For example:

A mission is dispatched to both generals and both mission cards say to takeover and maintain control of the village for 20 minutes. Side A fails to take over the village, instead, Side B holds the village with large numbers and there is 4 minutes left.
In the remaining minutes of the mission, general from side A tells a player to sneak inside the perimeter of the village, thus negating points for the enemy.
In an MPP (again, only for example) and according to Ben T., maintaining control of an area means that here is no enemy players inside the perimeter. We expect the referee in the mission area to understand this rule.

Example number 2.....this one actually happened.

At risk the world: armies in time, Spyderman tried to deliver a satchel charge in side a pizza box at each enemy base, wearing his Papa John's uniform, cap, and pizza bag. The idea sounded great and was working smoothly, but when a referee saw him, he called every ref on his radio and soon every base was on full alert.

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I personally believe that every single ref should take a test or class in order to ref on a scenario field, the only problem is that many do not want to do the jobs.
I personally have been compromised many times when refs call others on the radio and players pick it up.
Some of the best refs that I have had the pleasure of working with were/are player; these guys KNOW the rules and know what frustrates the player.....such as being late to the mission or being slow to call out tanks, buildings full of people, or those killed by artillary or airstrikes.


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"It doesn't bother you, killing those people?
-Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."
Proudly sponsored by Qloader and Hammerhead

Well said my friend, in terms of quick thinking.

When on the field, any situation may come, a situation that you may have never encountered. Here, you cannot trust the ignorance of a ref and the situation demands a decision within the next 2 minutes. Here we must all recognize one very big fact that few come to recognize:

We all trust guys like Ben T. to award points fairly and I'm sure others will atest that he personally over sees ever mission accomplished, every prop found, and every general/XO/base elimination. If there is any question as to whether or not points should be awarded for sneaky stuff, Ben personally speaks to every ref and even the players to verify the awarding of points. With this said, it is almost impossible to cheat this system. I'm not talking about wiping, or walking with barrel sleeves on, I'm talking about unfairly earning points. With so many checks and balances with referees, players (witnesses), rules and producer, if there is any foul play, it WILL BE RECOGNIZED.....No player is perfect...especially me and in interpreting the rules some may mess up.

The scenario rules are built for newbies, those who need the basics: do's and don't's, things to remember, and the basic forms of cheating. When a player comes to a big game, basic rules like the 6" tape rule are not necessarily mentioned and there is confusion. The rules unfortunately are going to get much more numerous and it is going to mean more work for the newbie/rookie player.
I believe that furthering the scenario list of rules would eliminate so much of the interpretation, because those that don't play the game to this extent have the extra energy to accuse players of cheating, if there is a rule for most situations, each player will be spoon fed with information and there will be no problems.

"It doesn't bother you, killing those people?
-Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."
Proudly sponsored by Qloader and Hammerhead

i've found that in general, half of the people at the pre-game briefs are not paying attention anyway. the rules are pointless in regards to the masses... only the people who already know the rules pay attention to them.

EXAMPLE-

leyte in nov. sunday morning the Japs held the castle. it didn't seem like there were more than 5 or 6 of them inside, so i figured i might be able to run in and cut that number down some.

i was wrong. i suck. thats beside the point.

as soon as i ran inside i caught a shot on the arm from a guy just inside the castle wall. i stopped and stood against the wall. called for a medic. a couple of my guys who assaulted in behind me eliminated the guy who shot me. he was throwing a fit because i hadn't plugged my barrel and left the field.

when i tried to explain the whole MEDIC thing to him, he labeled me a cheater, got in my face, and we almost ended up in a physical altercation.

if thats not bad enough- one of the REFs came over, and he had NO EFFING CLUE what i was talking about. Then the head ref came over, snapped at me for arguing with his ref, as all ref decisions are final. i asked if that policy was in place even when the ref obviously didn't pay attention to the pre game MANDATORY brief. head ref perk'd up then and inquired about what i meant.

when i informed the head ref he said i was correct... SURPRISE SURPRISE... and he pulled the other ref aside and talked to him. the ill-informed player was long gone, so i am sure he has no clue even now that scenarios often use a MEDIC role.

SAME GAME...
pre game brief CLEARLY stated that the backfield boundary is the powerlines. if you're under them, you're out. not under them, you're still in.
i had not 1, but 2 refs, trying to eliminate a 12 man squad for being in the area outside the treeline, where the grass is actually mowed. we were EASILY 15yds inside of the powerlines... it wasn't even close... but because we weren't inside the tall grass and treeline... they tried to call us out.
total BS... BRAIN was more than clear about the powerline boundary at the brief... he actually devoted about 2 minutes explaining it...

that crap gets me really irritated. its one thing if something is an oddity not covered at the brief, or a grey area judgement call, but for refs to just not pay attention to the brief is total crap.

and i know, REFing isn't easy... but thats just that much more reason for refs to pay EFFING attention to the game brief. sorry for my stupid rant.

i've been the ref in both situations you just mentioned and i have to say that it is extremely hard to make those decisions, especially in a big game format when you're having to watch every player on the field to make sure all the safety rules are followed, trying to communicate with the other refs so you can make sure you're at the right place at the right time for the next mission, have to answer any on field questions (ie- what time is it? or can you help me with my rental) and then have player problems or something come up is really aggravating as a ref. But, in my expierence when something is in the gray area, then usually it's just best to call a player out and be consistent with that.

IE- at super 64 i can remember we had a problem with people shooting over a corner of the field that made an L shape. Infact, it's right here:


So anyway, one of my ref's called a player out who had been shot across the boundary because he didnt know where the guy had gotten shot from. After that, we couldnt just call this one guy out and let the rest go, so for the rest of that fire fight we let it go and if you were shot across the boundary then you were out. Did people get a little pissy? Well yeah, cause to them they didnt get it, but we had to stay consistent with our calls. BTW, this was an unexpected problem that was not covered at the briefing.

i totally agree with you dude, understanding and making decisions, and having way too much to handle... that sucks.
but as you mentioned, your thing wasn't covered in the briefing. so you had to improvise and be consistent. thats understandeable.

but both of my issues were directly addressed at the briefing.

i have nothing but respect for refs, even the ones i am talking about... but the brief is given for a reason... its mando- so you have to be there... might as well pay effing attention right??

i think i may have hijacked this thread... is this still technically on topic?

It's totally fine dude.

You mentioned some terrific examples that are classics. I think that every player can agree that in scenarios, you allways encounter something new (if you don't do missions then this statement isn't for you )
I had ALMOST THE EXACT SAME THING REGARDING THE VILLAGE happen at Leyte but the confusion wasn't with a player, but a ref and Ben T. had to verify that I was correct in the matter.

I must be clear that I too have a deep respect for refs. Their jobs are hectic, exhausting, and quite stressful. My statements earlier were more or less towards refs who do not take the time to understand the rules.

I agree with the action taken by SCpaintball01 but I would like to respectfully say that it is important to know the rules of engagement and art of deception. For example: Would you have called spydy out in my example above, when he had the pizza stuff? or would you have radioed in his plans to your buddies? I'm not saying you would, I'm just saying when one player wants to make a difference all by himself, its tough and when the refs don't understand and call him/her out, it is infuriating.

Example: At a PBC game, I was walking at night near a ref who was previously informed that I was going to complete a mission very very very close to the enemy base. He thought it was so crazy and funny that I was going to attempt it that he radioed in for his buddies to be near when I arrived to 1. see if I can complete and 2. witness the massacre of me.

Needless to say bad guys were storming everywhere and I actually walked with an enemy patrol or missions team to the area and walked and talked among the bad guys (in the dark) like I was one of them. I didn't need to identify myself and no one said a work regarding who I was but the refs decided it would be funny to tell one of the guys I was in the group and you know the rest.....


On a side note, speedball players who decide to ref do not know the mind of a scenario player, atleast players who do missions and are concerned about their completion. It takes a scenario player to make an effective ref, unless the speedball ref has learned, but at big games, we really really need the experienced on staff!

-With my deepest respect and appreciation to all refs!

"It doesn't bother you, killing those people?
-Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."
Proudly sponsored by Qloader and Hammerhead

partially that is the fields fault for not letting all their ref's know what missions are going on at a time. I remember when i reffed i was told i had one job- call players out, keep it at safe. I didnt even have a mission card and had no idea what missions were being ran or when, that just wasnt my job to monitor. With the setup you said, i would have probably thought that might have been a real mission and not just a spur of the moment thing so a quick radio to the head ref asking if a guy with a pizza box and stuff was a real mission? to see if i should follow him to the next fire fight could have been what happened.

i disagree. like i've said -- the times ive reffed "big game" format, i've been given a job and speedball ref's are really good as roaming ref's who just police the fields and help the players.

Ben's games are real tough to ref because the refs dont have a clue where the missions are going even after they are issued unless they happen to be attached to a mission team. this means all refs are likely mission refs. and all refs have to be able to judge the situation fairly based on the rules of the game. (i.e, ZONED REFFING)

corollary one: this means ALL REFS for Ben's style games must understand the rules and be ready for some crazy stuff. its why we pay the big bucks to play scenario games.

corollary two: for open book style missions games - its much much much easier to ref simple because the veteran scenario refs know where to be ahead of time. (novice refs can roam the action for paintchecks etc.) (i.e, MISSION REFS + ROAMING REFS)

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with Nix's and Steers's rants: I think this is place for such rants. maybe we can educate some refs and players about the differences in the rules (hense the topic of this discussion) -- and the reffing skills needed to make calls in various situations regarding those rules. It is a fairly natural extention of this discussion.
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Steers : refs that rat out clever players to their friends that are playing suck. It would be cool to post a list of all the clever ideas that were blown due to Ratting Refs - but that would make public the clever ideas. someone should write a book...

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Nix - im 100% with you on the powerline deal at leyte. Ben said road. brain said powerlines. refs said powerlines. later ben said road again (use road - but dont cross ). in fact there were two sets of powerlines. little low ones on the tree line blocking players from using the road --- and the big high power ones over the road. It negatively impacted the game for the first several hours.

Some boundary tape would have made things nice and clear.

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Super 64 : awesome game. excellent reffing all around. Brings up an intresting rule variation. Tournament: shooting over boundaries = not allowed -- yes this used to be an issue back when we played woodsball tourneys.... in scenarios and recball, ide say shoot over all the boundaries you want - just dont cross.

In tournments -- cross boundary - you are out.

In recball -- cross boundary -- please return now -- get warning.

In scenario -- cross boundary -- could go either way. Ide let the judge decide. kids making accident = warning. vets trying to pull a fast one = out. confused refs and confused players an an unmarked boundary -- (i.e. leyte) -- back everyone up 100 yards, make a call into producer for clarity, announce to players in area the decision and play on.

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Very very good points and thumper said the rest!
thank you for your input.

"It doesn't bother you, killing those people?
-Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."
Proudly sponsored by Qloader and Hammerhead