tourney vs rec -- splain the rules

[thumper]

Grendel had a nice little blog entry on Cheating and it caught my eye... what really are the rules difference...

SELF PAINTCHECKS

tourney ball - you get hit on the back of the arm, ref sees it runs over, you put you hand back to feel for goo - and you get ejected for wiping an obvious hit.

recball : odds are there is no ref near by - you reach back to feel for goo - find some and call yourself out... You are expected to check yourself.

confusion here: tourney player on a rec field in the woods sees an opponent checking himself doesnt NOT means he is wiping - it means he is doing a self paintcheck like he is supposed to.

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PLAYING ON : (case 1)

In recball - you take some hits, but still in a hail of paint - you run back so you can take enough cover to check your self for breaks... This is not playing on.

In tournament ball - you take some hits, and run??? I can see a ref getting all nasty w/ a playing on penalty..

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PLAYING ON: (case 2)

recball : you take a hit, it breaks, you know it breaks, you call yourself out. If you dont - you are intentionally playing on. (thats called cheating)

recball : you take a hit - you know you took the hit but you are not sure if it broke : it is your job to determine if it broke - so you check - or disengage and check - or call for a paint check. if you dont, thats called cheating - because you know you took the hit and you intentionally played on.

what is playing on in tournament ball? Im not familiar / the specifics per format..

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PAINT CHECKS:

Does calling a paintcheck make you neutral? or can an opponent keep dumping until you call OUT..?

Recball: when waiting on a ref to check you, do you keep shooting?

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Lying
In recball : blue player yells to red player "Are you red?" -- red answers - "No Im blue" -- and the red player shoots the blue player... sounds good to me.

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Deception
rules say 6" of face taping showing on front of mask. you walk point with your hopper covering your mask -- or take cover behind tree making sure your face tape is behind the tree... -- not cheating -- but still deceptive.

break that 6" of face tape down into 1/2" pieces - and that is too far.
tuck it back up into your mask or weave it inbetween the grills of your mask - that is too far.

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Scenario ball -- major differences..

The rules are written and published. players are expected to play within the rules - if not, that is cheating.....
but my goodness there is a lot of room for interpretation. I guess the rule of thumb goes like this: when it doubt, ask Ben first.

as for fraud / deception etc : as Ben puts it - "You can Lie - you just cant Cheat" -- and oh my there are some clever boys out there.


case study : nothing in the rules about it, but a team printed up some cards like those used by the producers for special weapons and missions. these cards then explained to the ref that the players holding the cards were invincible
and the players used these cards to roam the field with out danger.

the producer later discovered the cards and penalized the team responsible.

In my opinion - it was a very clever idea that if approved by the producer would be been unfair. Point is, since the idea was so GREY, the team should have checked with the producer BEFORE trying their stunt.

I can see adding to the universal list of scenario rules: you cant lye to a ref.

note to the sceanrio refs out there: players can try some clever stuff. if you rat them out - you suck. If you (ref) dont understand the rules - you really dont have any business reffing - in in doubt, keep your mouth shut and at a convienient time ask the producer. DO NOT ASK OVER THE RADIO - 1) because the opponents base ref has one 2) because their are always unwanted people listening on all freqs.


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[havokrooster]

most of the guys i play scenario with use common sense in most of the cases. you covered alot here thats not really mentioned in player briefings. here is what we do in rec and scenario games:

self paintcheck -if you can, call for a ref or a buddy. if you dont see or feel the break, play on as long as your opposition isnt yelling something like "check your hopper" etc. in that case, listen to them. if i get hit say, in the back, and i cant check it, i will call myself hit. one reason being that it was probably a good shot that took some sneaking up to pull off. two, it really just saves for the confusion and argument. respawns are ussually instant. its no big deal.

playing on: alot of tourney ballers have told me that its not a hit unless the ref says its a hit. this would never work in scenario ball. if its bigger than a quarter, youre out. simple. scenario fields just dont have enough reffs to put one per 3 players. again, common sense prevails here. and basically, from my experience, playing on in tourney ball is taking hits but making the reff call you out.

playing on case 1: i disagree here. you take a hit, you stop right there. you can try and drop for cover and call for a check, or a medic. most of the time however, once a bead is set on you, youll get hit more than once and know it. scenario games are so big that if someone sees you run after taking a hit, theyll say you cheated. they will never see you return or call yourself out.

case 2: yes. i am ussually up front, so when i get hit theres 10 or 12 flying behind it. lets say, when my fat ass gets hit, its obvious cause im covered in paint.

"Does calling a paintcheck make you neutral? or can an opponent keep dumping until you call OUT..?"

in your basic rec game, yes. in a large scenario you will rarely ever be a nuetral player. most producers will tell you that you can drop for cover but you can still be shot at.

"Recball: when waiting on a ref to check you, do you keep shooting?"

i wouldnt recommend that. like i said. if its a good solid hit that stings and theres no reff around and you cant check it, just call yourself to save the confusion and argument.

lying and deception: i play the game straight up. i am confident enough in my skills that i dont need to alter the rules. ive seen players use dropped/given player cards, try and hide their tape, lie about sides, etc. i think this is crap. i wouldnt go any farther than lying about your side when asked. you get alot of that "are you red?" i dont even answer here. i just shoot them.

"I can see adding to the universal list of scenario rules: you cant lie to a ref. " agreed.


these games have gotten so big and so fast that theres not alot of time to get real technical. these statements are solely based on my experiences and ethics. but its just common sense.

1. you get hit. call yourself or call for a paintcheck. if noones around (very rare) then just call yourself out.

2. during a paintcheck you may drop for cover but not run to cover or to a ref. you may not shoot at opposition until the check is complete. most players will show you the curteousy of not shooting at you during the check, but dont count on it or get mad if they shoot.

3. manipulating the game is the same as cheating.

[Grendel]

playing on case 1: i disagree here. you take a hit, you stop right there. you can try and drop for cover and call for a check, or a medic. most of the time however, once a bead is set on you, youll get hit more than once and know it. scenario games are so big that if someone sees you run after taking a hit, theyll say you cheated. they will never see you return or call yourself out.

I can see your point on this. Things are different now then when I first started playing. When I first started it was normal and expected for a player to check themselves, reffed paintchecks were far and few between. It was accepted and normal for a player who was hit but unsure if it broke to retreat from the action and check themselves, this meant you could not advance/aggress until you or someone else checked you for a break. If they found they were hit/marked they were expected to eliminate themselves and walk off the field. If they were not marked [no break] then they were allowed to reengage in the "battle". This was considered normal and not cheating.

Maybe some of us "old timers" need to rethink this. Perception of cheating is just as bad as actually cheating in the eyes of your opponent.

Anymore like Havokrooster if I'm hit and can not immediately paintcheck myself I go ahead and plug my gun and walk off. I'll get to come back in at the next insertion so not much lose in playing time.

[thumper]

Originally Posted by Grendel

Anymore like Havokrooster if I'm hit and can not immediately paintcheck myself I go ahead and plug my gun and walk off.

If no one is handy on my side and I cant feel paint, I've been known to walk over to the player who shot me to ask him for a paint check -- did this just last week in fact.

[Milkshake]

Exactly, at Charleston me and my son were going up the beach Sat evening and the sun had me dead in the face. My son kept yelling to me that a jap was straight in front of me on the hill and I could not see anything! Needless to say I was hit and no way to see it, so I yelled up and asked if I could get a check. My son said come on and I ran over, all clear and went back over around where I was heading before the shot and the dude let me back over. My compliments on fair and worthy play and hope this kind of action is contaigious. I think he ended up dropping back in the long run. I did however sneek a peek whilst getting checked and saw his location, is this concidered cheating?

[ace007]

Originally Posted by sp8nsc

I think he ended up dropping back in the long run. I did however sneek a peek whilst getting checked and saw his location, is this concidered cheating?

Staying hid is his problem & his responsibility, so it's not cheating.

[ace007]

--Some random thoughts on this topic & some of the stuff that's been said (as opposed to a organzied memo)

I agree with a lot that's been said. However, there doesn't seem to be any thought paid to the idea that if you want the game to be clean as possible, then remove as many tempations as possible to cheat. I believe we have rules or some of us want rules that conflict, for no super important reason, with that principal. With that in mind...

Even with instant respawns, the walk to & fro can be lenghty, in some cases tiring (up hill), and in the hot heat, something that players will avoid unless they know they are hit. So why the rule you can't move after you maybe got hit? After some modest experience, you can tell with a high degree of accuracy what broke & what probably didn't by the feel of it. Of course, you're obliged to check each one of course. By why shouldn't a player who's been in the heat of a battle retreat/move to a safer position before checking out hits they know from experience probably didn't break? Also, in the heat of a battle, you can mistake splatter for a hit & vice versa.

However, I too will call myself out, sometimes mistakenly, if I can't get a check, but in all honesty, in the heat of an open battle, I'm not going to stop dead in my tracks (sitting duck) to check a hit I'm virtually positive didn't break. Once in a safer position, I will do/ get a check to make sure. If I am hit I leave--if fact at the last Charleston MPP game, I had gotton hit without even feeling it--some guy I didn't know, prob. 15 to 30 minutes after I had been hit, noticed it & said "Did you know you've been hit?" He even checked it to see if it was an old hit. I said "If I knew I'd been hit, I wouldn't still be playing" Then I plugged my gun & walked off the field. Now I'm sorry the guy that hit me didn't get to get his ego all shineyed up by watching me leave, but he got a kill whether he ever knew it or not, which is much like real life I might add.

My point is, there's lot's of possible situations when it comes to hits & everything doesn't always fit it in to nice rules that allows everyone to watch & hear their victims call themselves out & walk off the field. Nice if it happens, but out in the field it's just not always going to play out that way.
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Now as for deception-- some is ok, but there's a frame of mind there, a slippery slope of sorts that will lead to cheating.

Case in point (no names & don't ask): I know a well known & award winning player who defintiely has the deceptive frame of mind. Don't get me wrong--I believe the guy has real skills. But what takes him above & beyond many other players is that he decieves to the point of cheating. I'm taking walking the field at times with a barrel condom on as if he is out when he really isn't & other stuff way past grey areas. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that kind of player.
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Now as far as tournament ball/speedball goes: I've watched the pros on TV & seen some ridiculus penaltys for playing on, such as a 2 player penalty for playing on after a shot in the pack that wasn't felt. I simpily came to the conclusion that that part of the game had evolved to be so fast & competitive that the game had passed what was being done ref wise. There should be enough refs to see everything for those games. Gog & other "you had to know shots" (such as hand hits) should be the only shots penalized if you don't stop right away. All other shots should be called by the refs only, taking disparity in honor out of the game. Refs should be stationed outside the nets all the way around (maybe 2 per side) & with the usual on the inside-- but whatever it takes. That would end those arguments.

[Silverback]

Originally Posted by thumper

Grendel had a nice little blog entry on Cheating and it caught my eye... what really are the rules difference...

SELF PAINTCHECKS

tourney ball - you get hit on the back of the arm, ref sees it runs over, you put you hand back to feel for goo - and you get ejected for wiping an obvious hit.

recball : odds are there is no ref near by - you reach back to feel for goo - find some and call yourself out... You are expected to check yourself.

confusion here: tourney player on a rec field in the woods sees an opponent checking himself doesnt NOT means he is wiping - it means he is doing a self paintcheck like he is supposed to.

In tourny ball, you are expected to check hits on the front of you, but to call for a check on back or suspect on back. and you keep playing until checked by ref, if it is determined by the ref that you should have been able to tell for yourself, they will pull a 1-1.

Tourny ballers that also play Rec ball, know the difference between rules for tourny and rec ball, no confusion (for the most part, there are those folks from Rio Linda, who don't always get it...)

PLAYING ON : (case 1)

In recball - you take some hits, but still in a hail of paint - you run back so you can take enough cover to check your self for breaks... This is not playing on.

In tournament ball - you take some hits, and run??? I can see a ref getting all nasty w/ a playing on penalty..

When in a hail of paint... call yourself out... in either case.

PAINT CHECKS:

Does calling a paintcheck make you neutral? or can an opponent keep dumping until you call OUT..?

Only a ref can call you neutral, and yes your opponent can keep shooting.

Recball: when waiting on a ref to check you, do you keep shooting?

When you call for a paint check, you are saying "Hey, I got hit, but I can't tell if it broke." So continuing to fire is "playing on".

Lying
In recball : blue player yells to red player "Are you red?" -- red answers - "No Im blue" -- and the red player shoots the blue player... sounds good to me.

Unless strictly forbidden by the rules, deception is just that. MANY times I have tricked players into traps while concealing my armband behind a tree. I'm sooo bad!

Deception
rules say 6" of face taping showing on front of mask. you walk point with your hopper covering your mask -- or take cover behind tree making sure your face tape is behind the tree... -- not cheating -- but still deceptive.

break that 6" of face tape down into 1/2" pieces - and that is too far.
tuck it back up into your mask or weave it inbetween the grills of your mask - that is too far.

TRUE and TRUE

Scenario ball -- major differences..

The rules are written and published. players are expected to play within the rules - if not, that is cheating.....
but my goodness there is a lot of room for interpretation. I guess the rule of thumb goes like this: when it doubt, ask Ben first.

as for fraud / deception etc : as Ben puts it - "You can Lie - you just cant Cheat" -- and oh my there are some clever boys out there.


case study : nothing in the rules about it, but a team printed up some cards like those used by the producers for special weapons and missions. these cards then explained to the ref that the players holding the cards were invincible
and the players used these cards to roam the field with out danger.

the producer later discovered the cards and penalized the team responsible.

In my opinion - it was a very clever idea that if approved by the producer would be been unfair. Point is, since the idea was so GREY, the team should have checked with the producer BEFORE trying their stunt.

Confucius say: "It is easier to get forgiveness, than it is to get permission."

note to the sceanrio refs out there: players can try some clever stuff. if you rat them out - you suck. If you (ref) dont understand the rules - you really dont have any business reffing - in in doubt, keep your mouth shut and at a convienient time ask the producer. DO NOT ASK OVER THE RADIO - 1) because the opponents base ref has one 2) because their are always unwanted people listening on all freqs.

Sounds like the voice of experience...

[crooked butt doctor]

as far as playing on is concerned... here is my view... why in the world would i stop at the moment of impact? wether it breaks or not, if i feel impact, i'm gonna check it as soon as i get to cover. if it broke... i'm takin the long walk... if it didn't, then i'm damn glad i didn't stop in the open and a) take 5 or 6 more waiting on a paintcheck, or b) call myself out on an impact that didn't break.
i don't see anything wrong at all with moving to cover after an impact.

as for the espionage portion of scenario gaming... the farthest i've ever taken it was to walk around holding only a pod... in plain sight. i hunted for props and nobody so much as fired on me even when i was deep in enemy territory.
aside from that, i leave the trickery to the smart people. i'm a ground pounder.

[scpaintballer01]

on the whole paint check issue- i think that the only time a player should ask for a paint check is if there is no way they can identify a hit ie- a pack shot. That's about it though. Just about everything else is checkable by the player.