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01-31-2008, 01:17 PM
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Dicrimination, equal treatment, & misc Stuff
Folks, Please Note:
This thread started over in the Heath ledger dying thread....we butchered that sucker up. Well Silverback happened to post this just when the rest of us had reached a decent agreement. Well, I told him he openned a lot of cans of worms- well I felt the need to put a hook in each one. Now this might come off as an attack on Silver--it's not. My replies would be the same if his post had been copied from some book. What I'm doing is challenging some of the things he wrote & giving my reasons for doing so. I like & respect Silverback & I hope he's not pissed & understands my reason for writing this. And think of all the things I could have said, but didn't. Thanks--Ace ************* Originally Posted by Silverback  BOTTOM LINE GENTLEMEN: I've had this conversation with my Dad, who is a Born-again-something. For years, I laughed and pointed fingers, and made "FAG" jokes, (still do, just different) then I met my wife, and she loves to vacation on Cape Cod. To make her happy (and in turn, keep ME happy-wink,wink, nudge,nudge) I kept my opinions to myself and paid attention to what Donna said about the people who live/work in Provincetown. What i learned is that this is NOT a lifestyle that these people choose. If they could choose, they would not alienate themselves from family and friends, nor choose the psychological nightmares they become. They are people trying to make a living, and find exceptance in the world. They don't try and force their sexual orientation on others, nor do they NORMALLY flaunt their sexuality. Now in a place like Provincetown, MA., the greatest thing about the town, is ANYONE can be themselves and NO ONE cares. The strangest thing (and funniest) in Provincetown are the tourist who come to town after reading the state brochure, stating that "Provincetown is a quaint Portuguese fishing village." It is, however, only about 5% of the population fish. the rest of the population are the gay and lesbian business owners, which brings in the tourist revenue into the area. After vacationing now in Provincetown for the last 10 years, my wife and I have gay friends who we care about, and look forward to seeing every year. My daughter has learned that some people are "wired" differently, but that doesn't make them bad people, and it won't rub off and it's NOT contagious. We also look forward to seeing a particular Provincetown performer, "Randy Roberts", he is a female impersonator and singer, and my wife is jealous of his ass and legs! One of Randy's best charectors is "Cher", (I dare anyone to no the difference) and sings just like her. My daughter and my niece have been going to his shows with us, (they're PG-13) for 3 years now. When we are in town and Randy is hocking his show out front of the "Crown and Anchor" he will holler, "There's my girls, Samantha and Nicolle!" Randy knows mine and Donna's name and my daughter and niece's name because we have brought them to the shows andthen spent time talking with Randy after the show. SOOO... My Dad was appauled that I would subject my daughter to the gay and lesbian lifestyle, because their deviates! And he also did not like the fact that I took my daughter to WALT DISNEY WORLD, because they hire GAY people. So I had the following talk with him: 1.) We are ALL God's creations, and he gave us freewill. 2.) Being Gay or Lesbian IS NOT a choice, it is in the DNA, these people can no more be Un-Gay than you or I could choose to BE-GAY. 3.) I don't remember where the passage is, but it says: "Judge not, lest ye be judged," In otherwords it is not up to us to judge, it is between them and God at the final judgement. 4.) If my daughter ever came to me and said, "Dad, I'm a Lesbian." it would not be because she choose to be, or that she was "subjected to gay people when she was young. I would do everything I could to make sure she knew I loved her for who she was, not who she loved. If Gays have an agenda it's that they want to be accepted and have the same rights we as Heterosexuals have. Whether it's marriage so that insurance, and property can be left to significant others. end of his post *************************************** I supose I should start from the beginning of Silverback's post & work my way down, but I doubt I'll be able to do that all the way through. First off, one thing you should know is that I'm a person that believes in making distinctions and I have no trouble doing so. Many people don't bother. Now everybody makes some distinctions in their life-- raw food vs cooked food for example. I'm referring to much finer ones than that. Similar, in a way, to the distinctions made by that picky English teacher you once had that would consantly say things like "You shouldn't use that word there, you should use this word, because its meaning matches better to what you're saying". The only difference is that the level of distinction I usually use is not as picky as that old English teacher you had was. But you can read on & see if you think otherwise. I'll start by repeating some of my already stated beliefs & facts: I believe that everyone, except child molesters, serial killers, etc. should be treated with respect and have their opinions/beliefs respected. Religions you should note, exsist as a separete entity--not just within the minds of believers. Religions should also be respected--but that doesn't mean you can't point out why you disagree with them, but it does mean there's a right & wrong way to do it. Making fun of religious people, for example, by calling them sheep or other names, shows a lack of maturity for sure and may show a lack of understanding, depending on the religion involved. I know for a fact that governments & school systems, both local and at the federal level teach beliefs-- which I think they should have a concerted effort to stay out of doing. One of the beliefs they often teach is that gays are no different than anyone else once you get past their sex lives and that they are normal sexaually (etc). This is not the only thing / belief they teach that I disagree with. Now as to gays being born gay, as opposed to chosing to be gay: I think it is very self-evident that the male & female sex organs were made for each other. The more you study it, the more self-evident it is. As a curious note, I'm told that humans are the only animals that mate face to face (obviously not always though, but I am curious to know if monkeys, which we're supposed to be close kin to, ever mate face to face). Anyway, I would even say that our sex organs were designed for each other. Curious enough, believers in the entire evolutionary theory say the same thing, we just disagree on where the design came from. When I went through school, they didn't even mention gay people, but they did teach "boys were made for girls" & vice versa. Moving on-- Fact: When people are born, sadly sometimes things do go wrong. Limbs may be missing or malformed, hearts may have holes in them, twins may be conjoined. The list of possible things is seemingly endless. Even though this occurs naturally (so to speak), we do not call any of those birth defects normal. In fact, we will often use surgical procedures to correct the problems, as we should. Now if you want to believe that gays are born gay, then fine, but it seems to me you are stuck with just another birth defect. I understand fully that agreeing with this view point doesn't necessitate that you change your views on how accepted they should be in society & by government. It would affect any beliefs in "normal". You shouldn't conclude that this, in any way at all, is all there is to my side's argument on the "normal issue"-- it isn't by far. I'm talking book length. But I know that there are plenty og people who aren't going to let facts cloud up an issue (I'm not saying Silverback's like that, just saying that they are out there). Beyond that, consider heteros that choose not to have sex at all(monks, nuns, & others). From this we can conclude that a gay person can CHOOSE to simply not act on their urges & attractions. You might think that's not reasonable. Then let's go deeper & consider pedophiles (people that prefer to have sex with kids, often very young kids). What's your explaination & expectation here? Do you expect those people to forgo their desires? Or do you fully expect (as in you don't blame them) them to carry out their desires if they can and it's just up to society in general to catch them & lock them away, but only to protect the kids? So you might say, well, they are messed up mentally--well I'd agree with you there, but why YOUR sudden switch (if you go this route)?? You say the gays were born that way, but the child molesters, oh they are different somehow & they are mentally ill. Please note I'm NOT talking about why sex with kids is illegal (the ages & physical & mental maturity involved), so don't waste time discussing that in your reply. BTW- Did you know that there are people who actually believe in having sex with kids? I'm not talking about the weird looking people you see getting arrested, I'm talking about normal looking people. I read a magazine article about 25 years ago on the subject. They had themselves a group name I don't remeber & a slogan I do remember. It was "Sex by eight (years old) or it's too late". I'm not making this up. There was even a picture of one of their leaders in the magazine. I believed they hoped to change the laws & make it legal. Then there's people who want to have sex with animals. Oh my, we get to go back to the "sex organs made for each other thing" plus discuss whether or not they were born that way or if they're just mentally ill. BUT, we get to leave out the age of the kids thing, plus, even us Christians don't believe that non-human animals have souls, so we can discuss the fact that "animal lovers gone wild" are not hurting other humans & may not even be hurting the animal. I remember a funny (but sick) story I fellow I once worked with told me. He had a friend that actually told this on himself. So this 3rd guy (my friend's friend) worked on his dad's dairy farm. Sometimes when no one was around he would screw the cows in the barn (now this isn't even the reason he told the story to him-the ending is). Then one day he's doing a cow & she backed him against the barn wall, trapping him in place & inside the cow. So then his dad starts coming toward the barn and he's scared his dad will catch him & then kill him. Well, since he told the story, you know he barely got out & then zipped up, before ol dad saw him. He also told my friend that the only thing wrong with screwing cows was that you had to walk too far to kiss her. Remember now, this guy is otherwise normal. Man I hope this doesn't give some nut the idea to go molest a cow. Then there's people who have sex, if they can, with dead bodies. Shoot, I think I'll just say "ditto that" & move on. Now, don't anybody get all in a huff & say & comparing gays to pedophies & people that screw animals. Remember my statement about making distinctions? Well what I am doing is comparing or actually asking "what might be the cause of other sexual activities that many consider deviant?" I in no way think that grown gay people are just like child molesters. Mmmmm, my oh my, this is a mess to discuss. But I think you can see that I'm not a sheep (a reference you didn't use, but others have--it refers to being a blind, uninformed follower), but I have thought about this in great detail & I would hope everyone could at least say I have some sound reasoning for believing what I believe. I, by the way, give you credit for having put thought in to your beliefs. Now moving on to the statement that gays wouldn't alienate themselves from family & friends if they were not born that way. OK let's check that out. What makes you think that? Hetero women & men all over the place engage in activites that can & have caused the same thing. Stuff such as drug use, gambling addiction & the biggie-- adultry. In fact, Hetero's, for the mere pleasure of sex, have been know to leave their kids & spouses completely--never to be heard from in a meaningful way again. Also, heteros have been know, again for the mere pleasure of sex, to turn their back on their country by giving away secreat information. Heck, in WWII, we used women to sleep with Germans & get information. I know a man that lost a job that paid over $100,000/yr, his wife and enventually all right to have contact with his kids (who had adored him) for the love of alcohol. I'm sorry, but in the world I live in, friends & family don't mean squat to some people. People commit murder to satisfy their sexual desires. Never-the-less, if you don't see that happening around you, I understand why you feel that way. Now moving on, trying my best to just to address things in the order you wrote them: As for where you vacation and why: I completely understand the need to keep the wife happy. I'm not sure exactly where the location is, but I've a feeling it's not too far from the area near Marth's Vineyard. That whole area is breathtaking during the Summer; wouldn't touch it in the Winter. Iz be a sirthan boy. Anyway, I also understand that a lot of women love gay men--because they are safe. That's the hetero mens fault for chasing anything with a skirt on it. Apparentlly, that would be dangerous in Provincetown for a hetero to do. However, I personally would never take my kids somewhere where something abnormal is presented as normal, but I understand you don't feel that it is abnormal. For one thing, everybody gets enough of that thru TV. For me, it's just not gays either-- I wouldn't let my kids go somewhere where drug use is presented as normal. In fact, for me, it's one of the life principals I live by-- I try not to appear as endorsing or having apathy toward anything that's wrong. Lying, stealing, alcoholism, are some of the biggies. Not this is just pretend, but for this same reason, I wouldn't appear with Guillionii on TV or a stage somewhere in such a fashion where someone might think I endorse him as a candidate for any office. Ditto for both Clintons. Guillioni is a mean, mean, perhaps even an evil man. Both Clintons are flat out evil IMO. I don't say that lightly & I have good reasons for saying it. This will be good fodder for when I get down to the "judge not" thing. LOL-but seriously, it will. Anyway, what you do on vacation is your choice, but I understand your dad being appalled, perhaps better than you. You see, I'm just scratching the surface here & you say your dad is a "born again something". Kinda sounded disrepectful, which, if so, that would be ironic. You see your thread is very much about being respectful--to people not even kin to you. But it's your dad & your kid-- I'm not telling you what to do or not-I'm just noting some stuff for you to ponder. As for the show itself--well, I like a lot of things, but that's not me. I'd rather go see a play, go to a comedy club, etc. And since you can afford that place, I think you could swing Europe. I highly recommend Rome & Italy in general (see a travel agency!), Switzerland, Austria & Germany. Then see how much your wife wants to go to Providencetown. I'd start with Italy. Now I feel I need to hit a few things that relate to this part of your post. The Walt Disney thing-- I know a lot of people who feel as your dad does. I respectfully disagree, but I see their point. It's not that I don't have a problem with Disney hiring gay people by the truckload. BTW, they do this because the company believes one of the biggest lies yet to be exposed to the public eye--that gays are somehow more artistic than heteros. Disney basically believes it can't survive without gays. Anyway, then Disney gives their gay partners company insurance. Thay do this, mind you, while barely paying a living wage to a lot of their employees--but they have the money to splurge on insurance benefits. Anyway, I look at it like this-- I don't think it's practical to keeps tabs on everybody like that. At Disney, gay is not something you see form Disney while at the park, even if you look for it. Now if I happened to show up on Gay Day, I'd be pissed & I'd leave. Now as far as gay shop owners go: If I was in a shop & realized that the owners were gay or I suspected it, I'd stay & shop most likely & buy what I wanted. Would I go back a 2nd time? Maybe. The thing is, you can get more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. I might make an impression on them by being nice. I'm not too pushy (believe it or not, LOL) but I'd carry on my normal conversation. If that happend to include saying something that let them know I'm a Christian, maybe I'd get a seed planted and maybe help heal any hatred they might have. Long shot? yeah it is, but I'll take a long shot over no shot. But I'm not going to crop my beliefs & principals in order to try to accomplish the same thing, but there's no reason to get in their face. That's just rude. About "get in your face"--that doesn't have to been literal. It can be talking loud on purpose & saying something like "I can't wait to get out of this gay filled town", knowing "they" are going to her you. I don't agree with doing that at all. Moving on to your talking point with your dad. You wrote: "1.) We are ALL God's creations, and he gave us freewill." My response: Essentially correct. God made man & woman, but freewill allows us to make ourselves in to something God has told us he doesn't approve of. I got to tell you that I was very surprised that you mentioned freewill in a post that takes the stance that Gays are locked in to being gay. I think you also meant by this post that God made gays. God no more did that than He created the other sexual deviates I mentioned earlier. You might want to rethink that idea. You Wrote: "2.) Being Gay or Lesbian IS NOT a choice, it is in the DNA, these people can no more be Un-Gay than you or I could choose to BE-GAY." My response: I already covered most of this one. However, apparently you are unaware of what happens with many men when they go to prison. Rather than do without sexual pleasure altogether, they often choose to go gay. It's not overblown either (no pun intended)-I have several family members who are prision guards. The stories they tell.... You wrote: 3.) I don't remember where the passage is, but it says: "Judge not, lest ye be judged," In otherwords it is not up t o us to judge, it is between them and God at the final judgement. My response: Wow I see this one a lot. Now I'm not the best at explaining this, so this will be incomplete--my bad. First off, if what you wrote is really true, does that mean you think we should let everyone out of prison? Oh, we have laws & we do judge people. The Bible says ..."judge rigtheous judgement" ...man there's a lot in the Bible on this. Anyway, seems like a conflict, but it's not. You see, God has prejuded a lot of things. Lying, stealing, etc. If we know for a fact someone is guilty of those things already covered, which is a long list, we can safely say, as an example, "that person is a thief". Now it might be best to just say it to ourselves or somewhere away from the person in question, but the Bible does not teach that you must walk around like Hogan's heros' Seargent Shultz saying "I know nothing". Now let's play pretend: Suppose you watched a man walk up to an innocnet lady & put a bullet through her head. So you walk up the the killer & say "You sir are a cold bloodied killer". Are you (A) guilty of judging someone or (B) are you just telling them the truth? If you said B, congradulations, you're catching on. You need to realize though that then the Bible talks about judging, it's mostly a message for Christians and mostly a message for dealing with other Christians, although all situations are covered. The Bible teaches that we all are sinners. Notice I used present tense. You see, I'm no better than anyone else. Now the Bible also teaches that you can't expect correct judgments from a corrupt, unrepentant people. Sound like any court house you know of? Well, it was like that 2000 years ago too. However, Christian are expected, nay commanded to overcome their earthly corruption & do judgment correctly. Did you know that the Bible teaches that Christians ought nought sue other Christians when a problem arises? They are to (1) talk it out themselves like adults. If that doesn't work then (2) Take a trustworthy friend with them to help talk it over. If that doesn't work then(3) bring it before their church. There are ways of handling multiple church situations, where the facts, not who is Mr. Big, will be considered before a decision is made. Then there is the plain old judgmental thing-- As in jumping to conclusions. Most of the time, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, well it's a duck. Then other times it walks like a woman, dresses like a woman, sings like a woman, but dog gone, it's a man!!! The point is, a wise man doesn't rush to judgement. Good Example: The Duke University President & the local prosecuter both jumped to incorrect judgement against the lacrosse team when that girl accused them of rape. Neither was a wise man. Now some basic stuff: Suppose you are in a room, say in the middle of a giant diner party. You know virtually no one there. You get in to a conversation, where it becomes natural for you to say that you don't believe that gays are sexually normal. A gay man or woman behind you hears you say that. Of course you haven't judged that person, you've just stated your opinion. Now if they whirl around, get in your face and call you a bigot, they have judged you and in the worse kinda way. That's the "judge not" you quoted. More basic stuff: There's no need to get in anybody's face. There's also no need to go out of your way to show how "non-judgemental" and "accepting" you are. Just be nice & do as you would if the issue wasn't even there. The thing is, it's one thing to discuss a particular act as being wrong. But if you discuss a particular person, you need to have your facts straight (goes back to my comments on Guilloni & the Clintons). Man there's a lot to this & I've truly only scratched the surface. And as I said, there's plenty of people that can explain this way better than me. You wrote: 4.) If my daughter ever came to me and said, "Dad, I'm a Lesbian." it would not be because she choose to be, or that she was "subjected to gay people when she was young. I would do everything I could to make sure she knew I loved her for who she was, not who she loved. My response: Tough subject. I was so happy when my kids showed interest in the opposite sex. If however, this happened to me, I'd gently tell her that she knows my beliefs, but my beliefs won't keep me from loving her. I have already told my kids many times I'll always love them no matter what. I also told them that if they chose poor choices in life, I'd be disappointed, but I would still love them. You wrote: If Gays have an agenda it's that they want to be accepted and have the same rights we as Heterosexuals have. Whether it's marriage so that insurance, and property can be left to significant others. My response: Some history- I can clearly recall when gays just wanted to come out of the closet. Now, as you say, they want much more. They want acceptance? Good grief, they will not settle for anything short of PC, which having society reaffirm back to them that they are normal. Gays sometimes say they we heteros need to get over them being gay. Well I say most heteros are over it, but the gay people themselves are not over being gay! As far as marriage goes: The Bible records the first marriage (Adam & Eve). This is literally true-- the Bible refers to Eve as his wife. And that's what marriage is-- the union of a man & a womman. Words mean things (there's my distinction making self coming out again). Happy doesn't mean sad. Sick doesn't mean healthy. Beautiful dosen't mean plain. Marriage literally means the joining of a man & a woman. It doesn't mean the joining of two people- no it actually means something more specific than that. Now the world can make legal unions if they want, but don't lie & call it a marriage. When this topic first became hot, I made up a little silly ditty to show the craziness of the marriage idea. It goes like this: I love my goat. That goat really floats my boat. Why can't I marry my goat? I just love to run my fingers thru that coat. And oh by the way, it's a boy goat that floats my boat!! The bottom line is for me as a Christian: I care about everyone. I hate sin, especially my own. But I love the sinners themselves. I don't care about telling others how horrible I think they are. First off, I probably don't even think they're horrible. But if I live my life just so, I might get a few people to wonder how I could care about them, even if they don't care about me. You see anybody can like people who like them. I care about people who even hate Christians. And I'm nothing special, believe you me!! Well I think I'm done for now!! Whew! The one thing I didn't cover that kind of came up is the difference in practical terms of being respectful, not discriminating, and equal treatment. I gonna do a separate thread for that. It's tangent to this but has a life of its own.
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Carolina Riot www.carolinariot.com Proudly Sponsored by SC Army Surplus www.scarmysurplus.com "When you're in command, command!"-Vice Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey Jr. (WWII) Last edited by ace007; 02-01-2008 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Add mucho stuff 
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01-31-2008, 03:07 PM
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RED FTW SUCKAS...  1UP Baller fo sho'
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02-11-2008, 08:11 PM
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I just wished my last posting would have stayed because it took several hours to write and I thought it displayed my point clearly. Too bad it was taken off before it was read by anyone.
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02-11-2008, 10:31 PM
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I did get to skim over one post by Jukando that I thought was profound. Not sure if it was the last one or not. It was the one where Jukando said he was once in or about to be in school to be a minister. I didn't get to study that post like I would have like to, but I think I got the general gest of it. Just so everyone's on the same page that reads this, as I remember it, Jukando was in school to be a minister and as he did his studies, he realized-- I guess it was his church and/or his denomination-- that they wasn't actually following the Bible. He made inquiries and was told, best I remember to ignore what he had noticed, and that they should follow their leader anyway or something similar. My answer, or really, my comments on that post to Jukando or anyone else that has had bad experiences with churches or denominations follows. This is for anyone, although I may center it around Jukando's comments, which is why this isn't in a PM to Jukando. First off, it's important to remember that a religion (I actually dislike the word religion for reasons I'll explain sooner or later) and the people who pratice it are two different things. Sometimes, people who are of a particular faith know little about that faith. They may know what they believe, but often they will not know why. Such people are often a danger to themselves and bring a bad reputation to their faith. Also, such people often go off to college where their beliefs are challenged by people ready to debate, often their professors. It might surprise you to learn that many, perhaps even most (outside of actual dedicated "Bible" colleges) religious professors are atheists or dog-gone close to it. There's reasons for that, including my pet-peeve PC, but one of the reasons for it IS NOT THAT THEY KNOW MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO BELIEVE. If I could setup a live debate between the people I know & the atheists PHD religion professors, I could prove that last statement to you--oh, I might not change your mind about God-- but I'd prove that statement beyond all doubt. Now the thing is, there are denominations whose beliefs are rooted in the Bible and they even use the Bible in their church, but they have strayed from the Word. This is nothing new--in Christ's day, there were the Pharacees & the Saducees. The Pharacees were legalistic (simple explantion: obey the rules & you are ok), self righteous (thought themselves better than others) and had become their own little club & lost contact with the average person. The Pharacees put the empamhsis on the outward appearance and ignored the heart. The Saducees, well the thing I remember about them at this moment is that they didn't believe in the resurrection. All of that runs counter to Scripture. (BTW-- I know I can't spell worth a hoot.) Jesus took both groups to task to their face. Now I could give examples of this or that denomination that believes this & that & then comment on why that's wrong by giving scripture reference. That would only make people mad. I could give examples of denominations filled with people that think that their church believes this or that, but really they don't (sounds amazing doesn't it). Sadly, many people don't know the tenets of their beliefs. A tenet is a basic, foundational, core belief-which often is so important, if you took it away, much of what's left begins to crumble. For Christians, one such basic tenet or tenets is that Christ was the promised and forotold Savior-- God in human incarnation form on earth. Now Jukando had actually done something all Christians are supposed to do-- search the scriptures daily to see if those things (taught) are so. He discovered discripencies-- good for him!!! The thing is and I don't know how many people can relate to this, but when you find some thing(s) like that, it can be very disheartening. Depends on the person, the situation, etc, but it can make you ask yourself "Is it all a big joke?", even though you may very well know it's not a joke deep down. But, for example, if you one day find that many of the people you grew up admiring actually just ignore parts of scripture--for whatever reason-- well that can be depressing and I'd even go so far as to guess that it usually is. My own pastor was telling me about a conversation he had with someone after a service one day recently at the church I go to now (prob. a visitor). This church has a number of Black members. One of these Black members almost sat beside this visitor, which just about gave the visitor a heart attack. So the visitor was telling my pastor this & some other nasty comments. My pastor's comment to me was that he didn't know how that visitor could call himself a Christian & feel the way he did towards another Christian, just because he's Black. But sadly it's out there. Now I personally, along with my family, went through some similar struggles this past year. I left the church I had been attending for about a dozen years, not because the church was wrong scripturely, but because there was a significant group in the church that went so far in a particular belief that they hurt people--including my family. It's complicated tp explain, but I say to this day that it's a great church filled with great people, but this one thing was off with too many people. And even though it wasn't a scriptural issue with the church, just a "how you should live your life" type of issue (broadly stated) with a select group of members, it still was depressing--still made me think ever so briefly "Is it all just a joke?". Still I have a lot of good friends I made while there and I have many good memories. Now I almost went to school to be a missionary. I still might do that one day. I love working for others as opposed to making some company richer. The thing I found when I tried to do it the first time is that is wasn't the right time for me. In the mean time, I do what I can locally. I have realized that there are plenty of poor, tired, and downtrodden people in my own back yard. I used to run a small bus ministry at my old church. At my new church, I'm learning to help in a bus ministry that operates on a much larger scale even though my new church is much smaller. We go out to places many would rather not go, picking up kids & a few adults that live in homes many people wouldn't step in. Instead of being at school with so many kids richer than themselves, they are took to a church where no one cares how much money or material things they have and where everyone care for them. Most of these kids are from boken (& I mean broke) homes, some from "mulitple time over" broken homes. You can see the lack of concern & care in their lives, yet these kids struggle to make it. Now these kids need God & they need someone to care about them. When I work with these kids, I get ashamed of how selfish I live and I get ashamed of ever so much as thinking for a second that it's all a joke. You can see evil at work in this world in all kinds of ways, but when you pick up a kid who has nothing but what he/she pretends to be, all the while hurting in a very personal way from a particular evil in the world, you know it's not a joke, because you can take this kid back to church & show them that it doesn't have to be that way & that in fact, there are people who care. Lest you think I'm patting myself on the back, well I'll tell you honestly that I'm an idiot trying to learn how to be effective and make a difference. Now I can't answer or comment on every possible hurt that can arise in a church or even life itself. But I say this-- don't abandon God just because other people did. I would hope Jukando- or anyone else that's been hurt, would consider starting over in some fashion.
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Carolina Riot www.carolinariot.com Proudly Sponsored by SC Army Surplus www.scarmysurplus.com "When you're in command, command!"-Vice Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey Jr. (WWII) Last edited by ace007; 02-11-2008 at 11:34 PM. Reason: add stuff
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#6
02-11-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
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Suicide Medic Team Tetanus jihad is for fags ~ Nix
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#7
02-14-2008, 12:06 AM
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I have to say you have a very legitimate thesis there. I believe most of it to be very thought out and I agree with it almost to a T I do have one small discrepency with the disney thing though. (being from orlando florida and have working for the worthless rodent I have some counter points for the following excerpt.)
"Now I feel I need to hit a few things that relate to this part of your post. The Walt Disney thing-- I know a lot of people who feel as your dad does. I respectfully disagree, but I see their point. It's not that I don't have a problem with Disney hiring gay people by the truckload. BTW, they do this because the company believes one of the biggest lies yet to be exposed to the public eye--that gays are somehow more artistic than heteros. Disney basically believes it can't survive without gays. Anyway, then Disney gives their gay partners company insurance. Thay do this, mind you, while barely paying a living wage to a lot of their employees--but they have the money to splurge on insurance benefits. Anyway, I look at it like this-- I don't think it's practical to keeps tabs on everybody like that. At Disney, gay is not something you see form Disney while at the park, even if you look for it. Now if I happened to show up on Gay Day, I'd be pissed & I'd leave." This whole section is filled with more holes then the swiss cheese that Mickey and Miny eat. In the latest fashion I shall Disect this piece by piece. First we have you stating your opinion that relates to a preivious poster which is Fine and dandy then you go into a pure speculated theory but stated it as fact. You state that disney Hires gays by the "truck load" since you are from the south I understand the measurment system I use it my self. But what you might not be aware of is the Equal Oppertunity Act. It basically states that all employers will not discriminate against anyone because of Age ,sex, Race , or SEXUAL ORINATAION. so Hiring people because they are guy . Bad point to make.. They may have alot of gay people because maybe jsut maybe alot of gays like disney. You know bright colors people by the name of Goofey running around. you never know so as to disney hiring more gays then heteros is a bad distinction to make considering that the lawsuit would be asternomical. Let me touch on your next Speculation, Disney Gives gay partners insurance. First the technical term is Domestic Partners. which I dont condone because I had a girl that I wasnt ready to marry yet but we had lived to gether for close to 3 yrs and Lockheed martin would not give her insurance because we were not married. Although IF i was gay they would have given my domestic partnerthe insurance. Not Fair at all.. But there is a Hudge differance you did not consider. 80% of people at disney are part time. you know 35 hours or less a week. That means they do not qualify for insurance. so gay or not if you do not keep a 40 hour a week schedule your not getting insurance. period!!! I can also assure you as a former employee of a management position they do Keep people under that 35 hour a week limit on purpose. < that is fact because I was part of that system but if you dont believe me we can call that my speculation. As for paying the workers horrbile wages "you hit the nail right on the head". but as for Chunking out money for the insurance. The insurance that employees get SUCK.. I am talking 20 to 30 dollar co pays which is horrible.. now insurance companys lower the rate by the amount of employees they have on a plan lets say that out of the 20 % of people that have insurance lets say that 1/2 of that is of the average worker not on salary. (obviously salary get better beneifits for doing less work IMO) so 10% of disney worlds employees is still a METRIC BUTTLOAD and affords disney a minimum payment because those who do opt of the insurance are paying 100 to 150 dollars a paycheck for just one person. that is approx 50 to 75 a week on what we allready determined are measly wages. as for you to show up on gay day that is not problem of disney. they do not organize that a independant organization does that. and if you think disney is going to say "HEY YOU GROUP OF GAYS CANT COME IN HERE " your sadly mistaken becaus that would be lawsuit heaven. other than the disney thing you spot on keep up the good work.
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#8
02-14-2008, 07:33 AM
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Actually, your information on Disney was refreshing to hear. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
While I probably could have left out most of it, my statements were based on Dinsey being known to be a Gay friendly company. I know- I once wrote the company a letter on the subject and got their official reply. The employee situation there is worse than I thought. I'b be interested to know how the character actors get treated, if you know. Frankly, most of those people are very good at what they do.
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Carolina Riot www.carolinariot.com Proudly Sponsored by SC Army Surplus www.scarmysurplus.com "When you're in command, command!"-Vice Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey Jr. (WWII)
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#9
02-14-2008, 09:22 AM
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taking a tangent for a second:
Teaching Kindergarten Kids About 'Human Differences' and Homosexuality Isn't 'Easy' in Newton First Grade Teachers from Brookline's Devotion School Reveal Their Plans MassNews Staff April 17, 2003 ... "I work in the Newton public schools, and a lot of times it can be a very reactionary group, and it has not been easy at all," said Laura Perkins, who is a social worker in the schools. ... Her session at Fistgate 2003 was about introducing six-year-olds to homosexual concepts. She shared books and sample lesson plans. The session was titled, "Developing Lessons that Help Young Students Understand Human Differences." Teaching Kindergarten Kids About 'Human Differences' and Homosexuality Isn't 'Easy' in Newton --------------------------------------------------- Its pretty bizzare that a goventment program wants to educate kindergarden aged children about sexual behavior -- and rejects the parents concerns. My wife homeschools our kids so we can determine what my kids are taught (since 2001) .. This costs me the wages my wife may have made in the market place. I am absolutely thrilled with this decision. I'de rather go to Carowinds than Disney World simpley because Carowinds doesnt have a sexuallity agenda. I assume we still have the right to choose where to do business...
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#10
02-14-2008, 10:25 AM
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i would love to get involved in this, and all of the other related discussions sparked by the heath ledger thread... good job ace...
but i literally do not have the time to devote to these discussions right now, what with my pending deployment and my rediculous workload. i will likely revive these threads after they have been long forgotten. happy posting people.
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RED FTW SUCKAS... 1UP Baller fo sho'
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