FPO Vs. BYOP & Why The Markup Is There.

[Newsman]

I, too, appreciate the different views expressed here.

We have here the best examples of each side -- reflecting those who truly are interested in the game and try to reward players with enjoyable experiences

I know first-hand that Hoop is certainly a promoter in N. Ga. with an emphasis on offering the best game at an ever changing, challenging site. He and his team have enriched the field there, at the same time offering BYOP. He and his associates also have encouraged enlarging the appeal of paintball, particularly through discounts for father-son teams. My son and I have appreciated that.

As for MPP, I have not played any of its games, nor have I played a game at Bear Claw. But that will all change in late October. My son and I are committed to Operation Torch, and are looking forward to its excitement and challenges. And we don't begrudge FPO there. From what we've seen here -- and we have reason to believe it totally -- the games at Bear Claw are simply fantastic events. Someday, too, we may make the trek to Charleston and try the field there. It looks like fun, though its being a hike from where we live may put that off for a time.

I think players are thoughtful enough to determine whether they get their money's worth, be it BYOP or FPO. There are good promoters and fields -- on both sides -- and the players will find them.

I think this discussion -- with reasoned respect on all sides -- is healthy, and will prove worthwhile to paintball and its players.

[spyderman84]

i think that every field should do father-son discounts. to some degree this is a family sport. it is one of the few sports that ANYONE can play. i mean any age, gender, or physical capabilities. if you are handicapped, you can run a tank crew. I, for one, have HORRIBLE knees and can't play any sports i used to play mainly ultimate frisbee and soccer so i have grown a new found love of paintball. those discounts like military, father-son, etc. boost this sport and should be practiced by all fields whether they are hosting weekend ball, tournaments, or scenario games. it encourages the growth of the sport and knowledge of the sport since there are tons of people out there, loads of parents, who have such a negative view of the sport and having a father play could change some minds.

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by 24HG_Hoop

Let me preface this by saying this is coming from a BYOP producer [24hourgames.com]...

Sure, BYOP isn't "free." I think the acronym might be FP [free paint] if it were. I doubt anybody confuses "Bring" with "Free," like "Hey Billy... Don't forget to Bring Your Boots" means that Billy might get free boots when he gets to the game, but that's neither here nor there.

In 2005, I switched over from FPO to BYOP.

Why?

Tons of complaints about:

-Somebody's flatline/Autococker/Mag/Angel didn't like my brand of paint;
-Somebody gun's eyes didn't pick up the shell color I'd picked;
-The bore of my paint wasn't right for their gun and they didn't want to buy a $200 Freak kit to get a good fit;
-The shell color I picked was hard for somebody to see flying to the target;
-Fill was too thick
-Fill was too thin
-Shell was too thick
-Shell was too brittle
-Paint sponsor wouldn't let them play at our field with non-sponsored paint
-Etc.

BYOP, even if the retail price of the paint is exactly the same, gives the player the OPTION of shooting whatever paint they want. Any and all of the prior complaints I used to get about paint surprisingly vanished. Go figure.

Since the retail price of paint isn't the same... and considering that gas has put a crunch on everybody's pocketbooks like it isn't even funny... saving a buck or twenty REALLY does matter to a lot of people.

We live in a world where "Little Johnny" saves and saves to build up $180 to buy an Ion that shoots 15 BPS, but can't afford to go play in a scenario game because it costs him [or his parents] $150-$200 a game. How cool is that for Little Johnny?? That's not really "inspiring" to the next generation of players that scenario paintball NEEDS to attract.

We live in a world where dads can't go out and play games because mom gets mad because dad can't also take Little Johnny with him, because its $150-$200 time TWO, or three ... or God forbid four! Dad usually sits at home because mom is mad about the family's finances, Johnny is mad if dad goes without him, etc.

So... yeah, even if its saving $15 or $20 a case, its worth it. Especially lately when gas is $3 a gallon and heating bills are quadruple what they used to be.

You've kinda also got to remember that $60 a case paint is really a RECENT phenomenon.... When I played a lot, from 1997 to 2002, everybody was FPO and nobody cared a lick about charging $80-$100 for a case of paint. Everybody's wallets got lightened since around about 9/11, and BYOP fields popped up, forcing the current $60/case prices. Otherwise paint would still be $80-$100 a case. Do a little math and subtract the current $60/case price from the $40-$45 cost figure and compare/contrast that with the $80-$100 price back in the day. People used to make $50 entry PLUS $50 a case. Multiply that per-case profit by somebody like me that shot two to three cases, and you see where I was paying somebody $200 profit every month [or more] just to play a fun [albeit simple] game. Being a player turned producer, that's SICK to think of how bad things used to be. At least its not as bad as it used to be, thank heavens...

The alternative solution to $50/case paint profits are/were little "outlaw" games of 5-15 people. Instead of 200 to 500 people getting together and meeting new like-minded friends, high-priced scenarios used to [still does...] force people into their own little thing, far from the FUN ... and almost always FAR AWAY from the safety ... that is scenario paintball as I know and practice it.

Ya know, I really don't want to grandstand on here about our BYOP policy, father/son discount, military discount, etc. but the bottom line is that I put on the same game that others do [catering to 250 to 450 players each game], all without paint profit. I do exactly the same "amenity package" noted above, paying for 100% of my prizes, but short of dinky $8 trophies and meals... for the same $50 entry fee. Consequently, I have to "pace myself" putting up major improvements, but I've dumped at least half of the money made from every game back into field improvements along the way. Electricity in the parking lot was the last thing, toilets and showers are next up, etc... I think its actually more beneficial to do it that way because every time you come out, something's changed. Wow... That bunker wasn't here last time! Cool... The parking lot doubled in size! Sweet... There's toilets and showers now!

I got into it because its cool to see people light up at things you've created, missions they get to run, experiences they get to have [and hopefully share with friends and family]. I already have a $80K a year job, so this is all just for fun for me. Some folks use paintball as their business, and that's cool if that's your gig. So, that doesn't mean that BYOP isn't viable, it just means that you're paying one guy's salary versus not. Its all just how you look at it.

I don't mean to come off like people that just make a living off of paintball are "evil" or anything - far from it - but let's not JUST say that BYOP is "the devil" because things like $1.30/player patches and a couple of $8 trophies have to be bought. Let's call a spade a spade and logically look at a solution to the issue...

If $15 paint profit is honestly the difference, then just charge $60 entry and go BYOP, considering you'll make the $5 difference [$50 + $15] off of people that need paint. I know it has made my life a whole lot easier, and it has given the players all kinds of options that they don't normally have.

--Producer gets his paint profit. Problem solved.
--Producer actually gets less headaches by not having to worry about suppliers, having to worry about shippings making it to the field, getting bad paint, having too much or too little paint, complaints about paint, etc. Problems solved.
--Producer loses face with National or whoever their paint supplier is, potentaily foregoing their prize help. So what.........

Amen.

I pay for 3 sets of air, registrations, and paintballs. I have 2 kids. My wife also wants to go to some, so there's 4 of everything. BYOP helps me ALOT!!!! I would have no gonads upon the return of one of these events if I went by myself. Plus it wouldn't be the same without the kids anyways. I wish the could have some kind of family discount for paint if it was not byop.
Hoop's right about the right paint for the right gun. Everyones got their preferences.
Devil's advocate says the fields have to make their money. Right, I know nothing about that so, I can't comment one way or another. I just know they need to make money also. Just as long as they don't "rape" the people attending. I don't think many are trying to do that.
70 to 80$ a case, well, I would have to miss that one. To me, that's rape.
Example: entry fee: 65$ (x3)= 195$
air: 15$ (x3)= 45$
Already looking at 240$
field paint: 55$ (x6)= 330$
BYOP(draxxus bronze): 40$ (x6)=240$
BYOP(draxxus white box): 35$= 210$
I save 90 to 120$. That's gas and food and maybe a tee shirt or two plus change. For me the difference in the two is the difference in attending a couple more a year. I have to save in between events to get enough money to go. If I have to pay 100$ more and event, that could very well be the amount I was unable to come up with between the paychecks.
I guess to sum it up, my biased opinion would be to have more "family" oriented discounts. I know, I know, if I was single I would probably be saying what about me? I would suggest, perhaps, a discounted rate on multiple boxes bought. That way if you shoot 2 boxes at an event, you could at least receive some kind of "help".
I have always believed this: More volume at lower prices equal, more sales with higher profit through higher sales volume. Then the question to the promoters is, how much paint do I buy? That's where we help them by preregistering. Maybe only preregistered people could get the discounted paint. I guess this could be argued for ever. That's my story and I'mmmmm sstttickin to it! By the way, I mean no malicious intent towards any one reading this. It is just an opinion.

[IRONMIKE]

Everybody knows Paintball Charleston is the best for paint choice and price.

[socoj2]

I have been to Hoops game.. They where good.

Now. The Paint.

I get X-Ball Silver for $40 a case.
and XO Menace for $30..

Thats quality paint and better then the $55 pro-ball i shot at Command Decision.

Your getting $60 in a field fee from me + $15 for air.. for roughly 16 hours of play time.

Lets compare local Field. that is BYOP

Holy thread revival batman.

$25 including all day air x-ball bronze for $50
So i could play for 2 days straight 16 hours for still about $50 less then i could at a scenario.

I play because i love it... How about...

You charge 1 Price for Field and Air instead of $60+15, *always seemed stupid anyone who plays is going to need Air*
And $15 extra if they want to BYOP.

Not to mention I get 3 Vendor Trips a year where they take us out and i end up with 2-3 cases left over.

What i would like to see is the whole sale cost of Bronze. which is below $40/case so you guys are making almost Double on that paint. Hell you could drop it to $45 a case and still make a killing.

[crooked butt doctor]

i understand both views. luckily for me, i am able to stay abreast of upcoming events and i know to set aside money WAY in advance.
personally, i don't mind paying for good paint... but i do see where some may not "mind," but their financial situation renders it difficult if not impossible.
-what if-
you had...
tourney grade at $60ish (these prices are approx)
recball or whitebox at $40ish
and then a BYOP option at $10 per BYOP player??? the field still gets $, and the financially struggling player saves $$.... i mean thats a loose plan, but with some tweaking and adjusting, i think it'd work.
i'd still be a 3case of tourney guy myself, but in the long run i bet a lot of people would benefit on both ends of the deal.

[Skeeter]

Glad this thread came back up. Good points, and every single one is from the perspective of the player, even the posts from field owners and scenario promoters. The industry is changing (read: maturing). Bad fields are going under and good fields are surviving by offering the best product for the $$$.

The cost of paint, as the primary consumable of the sport, is critical, but now, every BYOP field has to compete with Wally-World, Richards Sports, Tarjet and any little hardware / sporting goods store in town. Add this to the mail order options, and the local field won’t survive if the prices are out of the acceptable range for the players.

If a field owner does not recognize the competition, they won’t be around for long. Offering a decent base grade paint for $40 a case, including tax is a reasonable. Upper grades can be bought for $50+, but there is a quality increase that justifies the price increase. We pay a decent amount for rent, on our 57 acres in the CITY of North Charleston, so dropping the price of paint was a serious sacrifice. We felt the need to do this when we started noticing too many empty boxes of Scorch, Wild Streak and some other flavors of paint in our staging area at the end of a day of rec ball. We lowered the price to $40 for basic paint a while back and watched closely for a drop in “strange” paint at the field. It didn’t really happen. Too many people don’t know that better paint saves you money, and they still shop for the stale, dimpled broken boxes of paint from the big department stores. We try to educate new player as to why good fresh quality paint saves money, but some people will always be bottom feeders. We still see plenty of empty cases of “strange” paint at the end of the day, but many of our regulars have enjoyed the price drop and play more often as a result. I wish the sport was free, but that will never happen. Anything and everything we, as field owners, scenario promoters, players, wholesalers… can do, to bring new players to the sport, and make it affordable for existing players to return more frequently has do be encouraged. We didn’t see a jump in paint sales, but we do see a lot of our friendly faces and regular players out more often as a result of our price drop last year. Yes, we took a noticeable hit to our profit margin (which wasn’t all that big to begin with), but more people are coming into the sport and we should be able to survive because of it.

We can pay our rent, and our fixed expenses, but not much more. If a field is able to offer $40 paint, then the players should recognize that it can’t go much further. I wish we could, but the expenses don’t allow it. My greatest hope, from a players perspective, is that we can continue to offer $40 paint, and won’t be forced to have an increase as wholesale prices rise. The industry is tight right now, just like the players are. Our sport is a “luxury” activity and many players don’t have the financial ability to play as often as they would like. We respect that, as owners, and wish we could go lower on paint prices, but $40 leaves just enough margin to cover our basic operating expenses. I do, as an owner and a player, believe that this price point for a respectable paint is about as good as it will ever get. Now, we just need to get out on the playing field and shoot the snot out of each other with it…

[crooked butt doctor]

well said skeeter. i'll be there saturday as usual... shooting the good stuff.

[Litespeed]

Amen Skeeter....

Who's complaining with $40 a case? That is a great price IMO. I've got to get down there sometime.

[crooked butt doctor]

Originally Posted by Litespeed

Amen Skeeter....

Who's complaining with $40 a case? That is a great price IMO. I've got to get down there sometime.

yeah you really can't beat it. PBC rocks. you have the option to buy good paint at $40, great paint for a little more.... or, if you're between paydays... like i was this past sunday... bring your own...