For those who did not know, during night missions at Leyte, this past weekend, a brilliant strategic play was pulled off by the Americans on the Japanese CP. I was part of the Japanese team and returned to our base after completing a mission, to absolute pandamonium. It seems that an American player, using found Japanese ID, gained access to our base, and managed to place the sachel charge he had on the CP and "Blow it up".

Needless to say, all hell broke loose, and screams of cheating and unfair play flew like scrapnel from an anti-personnel mine. The referee got on the horn to the head ref, and it was determined that since the player had an ID, other than his own, this was deemed cheating/against the rules and the points were not awarded.

I was on the Japanese side, and while very glad that the CP was not blown, (we would have lost all the points for our found props) I thought it was a BRILLIANT STRATEGY! Using an ID found, has often been used in other Scenario games I played years before.

To clear up the confusion/anger generated by the ruling I talked to Ben after the games were completed and most players had left. I explained my position which he understood, but his explaination as to why it did not count, reversed my opinion of the ruling.

Ben stated that his most important objective in designing the scenarios, is that everyone has a good time. He did not want the game to turn into a situation where players are more concerned with internal security, than with playing the game. By ruling that lost/found badges cannot be used it turns the game from "Guard the Command Post" back to "lets get these missions going." Ben' only concern is everybody has a good time, and having been in the Command post area right after the "Blown Incident" (pun intended) the whole of the game turned to "I'll shoot anyone within 25' of the CP!" and Interogating everyone walking into the base two and three times. I was thinking, "This sucks" myself, and it did.

So by making the use of found ID's illegal, it will prevent a similar occurance from happening in the future, and prevent ID's from possibly being stolen to pull off a coupe such as this. (Which was NOT the case in this game)

I hope that both cleared things up and smoothed any ruffled feathers in the process.

We kill more airborne before 09:30 than other units do all day...
Leutnant, 6th FJR - 2008
NAPRA #264 Automaggot #133

"In the end we're all just chalk-lines on the concrete. Drawn only to be washed away...." Five Finger Death Punch

the player ur referring to i believe is SCbrian. but i actually GAVE him the jap ID that was GIVEN to me by a jap friend and player that left the game after the 1st day. it should totally be allowed if its purposely give to an opposing team to spice up the game.

as for the lost IDs they should not be allowed. simply because some1 didnt intend on loosing their ID and therefore loosing the ability to play the game. lost ids should always be turned in to a ref, store worker, or event runner so that it can be returned to the player so he/she can continue to play the game.

This kinda goes back to why I got tired of playing Waynes World games. They were always more spy versus spy and trickery than about the actual game. Don't get me wrong the games were good but it didn't seem to matter how well your team did on the field but how many times your spy poisoned the other team's general.
Safety comes first.
Allowing players to impersonate as a teammate causes undo trouble and nasty close range shots. Even if an opposing player gives the ID to you it doesn't make it right. Ben has always had a no spy policy (that I know of). Anyone caught using this tactic should get their card punched and a possible point penalty to their team.
IMO

I played alot of the early Waynes World games in the early 90's and remembered that it was important to report a lost ID, so that security could tighten up at the base. I don't remember if it ever seemed to suck as much as it did this time, but I am in complete agreement that False ID's should not be allowed.

Again it was a great game, Thanx

We kill more airborne before 09:30 than other units do all day...
Leutnant, 6th FJR - 2008
NAPRA #264 Automaggot #133

"In the end we're all just chalk-lines on the concrete. Drawn only to be washed away...." Five Finger Death Punch

I played evey game at Waynes in the 90's and I can tell you that Waynes games were chocked full of spy's.
At Broken Arrow we were the Arvin and I was head of our security. Well my own captain was the turncoat, an NVA Spy with Id and everything. He is lucky he got away and I didn't find him cause I was going to assanate him on sight. He did give our code book and raido freqiecy and every piece of intelegence to the VC.
I also can't tell you how many times I've found player cards on the field and tried to find the owner. Seamed like to me that no one wanted to be thought an idiot for loosing there player Id. If you have a enemy player card and a demolition card it would seem to me that you have every right to infiltrate the enemy base and blow it, but you got to have enemy color tape as well. So its kinda serindipity to have all that and be able to convert it to a base or gen kill. Point of referance if you don't put your event badge number on your player card its very unlikely you would get it back.

hope this doesnt mean you're considering a 10 ft rule...

Here in the Southwest, where we have Blackcat games, the "spy" role is well defined. Spiro sets it up well:
1) You use the origional player card you were issued.
2) You have to have a SPY role card (sheet of paper identifying you as a spy)
3) You must get someone from the other team to tape you with the opposing color.

You set CP security, but it dosen't take away from the missions. It adds to the overall game play.

"Sweat Spares Blood"

I really appreciate silver back putting on this thread.

At the game I, SC Brian, and one other tall guy was in the base due to lost ID's.

At a past game in Bear Claw, me and Ben T. were discussing this same subject and he declared that if the you were able to walk into a base with their found ID and they gave/put tape on for your mask, then that was a legal assimulation for spy role playing. The same concern was going through my mind at the JAP base when Ben T. said to Silver back what he is saying here now and now that I reflect, I don't blaim him.

SC Brian was actually the guy whoshot me in the foot and he did good to difuse the situation, which there were atleast 100 players debating whether or not I was out and it could have been 5000 shots to my chest .

BUT YES!!!

these threads need to start, because if you don't care about the rules, you have no business arguing like you know something when someone does just that.

*Just to clarify, my fault on the second run was me blowing up the base BEFORE I recieved my tape, so of course it would not count. I was not trying to "cheat" or decieve anyone....when the player at the CP, leaning on the wall aimed his gun at me, I reacted, thinking that I was dead.

But for real, there is never a need to start ranting and raving about whether or not the points count (like a dang NPPL tourney conflict); in scenario ball, the true and just decision will allways prevail.
I have seen Ben T. spend at least an hour after night games reviewing missions, props, and sneaky stuff, to make sure that wihtout a shadow of a doubt that the points are correct....so next time we may rest at ease.

-with respect

"It doesn't bother you, killing those people?
-Well I wouldn't be very good at my job if it did."
Proudly sponsored by Qloader and Hammerhead

Thanks Steers,

When I talked to Ben, I asked him if he minded if I started a thread on Junkie, and he said, please do. I knew that there were varied opinions on using found ID cards, and I wanted to get the word from the source, then put it in this forum so it could be hashed-out.

Hopefully, after batting this back and forth for a while, it won't be an issue in future games.

We kill more airborne before 09:30 than other units do all day...
Leutnant, 6th FJR - 2008
NAPRA #264 Automaggot #133

"In the end we're all just chalk-lines on the concrete. Drawn only to be washed away...." Five Finger Death Punch

Well, my two cents on this.....

I dont think using the oppositions ID should be allowed for a few reasons.

First of all, they can be obtained through methods that can not be defensed.
If a team has a new player, or a probie, or friend.... the ID can be handed off to participants of the opposing side with no way to defend against this action. If there is no way to defend the action, why should it be allowed?

For instance... Wiping is not allowed, not just because it is morally wrong, but there is no point in competing against a wiper. Going out of bounds isn't allowed because there is no way to defend against it legitimately. Talking while dead is wrong because it wipes out the advantage of eliminating a player.... ETC...

In a nutshell..... If it can't be strategically opposed, it shouldn't be allowed.
ID's are not only willingly handed off at times but, they are also carelessly handled at times, which creates a grey area. I would hate to think that in the future, there may be an opponent tailing me in the camp area just to get a hold of my ID for game purposes. I may lay it on the table to remove my shirt in order to cool off, would a person be wrong in picking it up? Probably but here we step into that grey area.

Another example......

"Hey Joe, good to see you again, I hate that we didn't get to play on the same side this game but hey.... next time....
Whats that?.... Your'e leaving early? Well hey.... Let me get your Player card so if you win a prize I can get it to you or maybe my kid brother can win it instead of burning it."......... Etc.

Too many grey areas to cover for this to be legal in my book, and I only covered a few here. If your going to sneak your way into an opponents base, figure out another way to do it. There are MANY other ways!

I dont think it was unsportsmanlike to exploit this method, but I agree with the decision to deem it invalid. I have found many opponents ID cards on the field over time, but have never used it against them. My concern was making sure it got back to them so they would be able to continue play, win prizes at the end, and have a keepsake. I think of it along the same lines as equipment.... they can't use it against you as long as you have it, but it belongs to them and you should try to get it back to them as soon as possible.

Thanks for letting me put in my .02

Jason "My-T-Mouse" Hall
(Host) Mousetrap Radio
www.mousetrapradio.com
(Cpt.) DOOM TROOPERS
Central Florida
DOOM ON YOU!!
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