Scenario and Ramping: My opinion

[elvis]

oh yea what ace007 said!!!!!!!!!!!! lolol

[ace007]

Quote from Aerion's post:

Instead of throwing up strawmen, you guys might try logical and reasonable counter-arguments. You could start by coming up with logical reasons why ramping somehow is good for woodsball or otherwise promotes or improves the sport. Thus far, all I've heard is that:

1> Those who believe ramping is bad are wimps or cry-babys and should give up the sport.
2> The technology is here to stay so if you don't like it refer to number one above.

************

My response to Aerion: 1st of all, the Triggertyme discussion was the first time I've heard ramping called bad. I've heard "full auto" called bad at various times, and I've heard bps above 15 called bad, but not ramping to 15 bps(until now).


2nd of all, I do think ramping is good for the sport. Why? It allows mimicking of real life easier. So I think the argument is the opposite of what's been stated in this forum. It makes more sense to me to have ramping in woodsball, because woodsball is more (much more) real life (part of the attraction) than speedball.

Also, while several people have stated that ramping was for people with less skills, it's rather easy to shoot 15 bps without ramping. However, ramping makes it easier for everybody to do it, helping the new player. Again, mimicking real life. A real gun doesn't know who is pulling the trigger (Example: an M16). Woodsball at the end of the day is the old game of "Army" I played as a kid, except now, you prttey much know when you've been hit or hit someone else.

Ramping in woodsball allows the player to concentrate on what really separates woodsball from speedball, which is the tatics and team work. Where speedball lasts, what, 3 minutes max, woodsball games can last up to 24 hours. You might get tired, but with ramping, your fingers will not ache from shooting.

I have palyed speedabll, but I started in woodsball, then tried speedball. I think it makes a difference in some people's perception of this. It seems to me, speedballers are quicker to call overshooting than their 100% woodsball counterparts. Perhaps I'm wrong, but even on T.V., the professional speedballers cry overshooting quickly.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but can you not see my point of view? (I can see yours; I just don't agree)

[xhomicidal_freakx]

Originally Posted by ace007

Quote from Aerion's post:

Instead of throwing up strawmen, you guys might try logical and reasonable counter-arguments. You could start by coming up with logical reasons why ramping somehow is good for woodsball or otherwise promotes or improves the sport. Thus far, all I've heard is that:

1> Those who believe ramping is bad are wimps or cry-babys and should give up the sport.
2> The technology is here to stay so if you don't like it refer to number one above.

************

My response to Aerion: 1st of all, the Triggertyme discussion was the first time I've heard ramping called bad. I've heard "full auto" called bad at various times, and I've heard bps above 15 called bad, but not ramping to 15 bps(until now).


2nd of all, I do think ramping is good for the sport. Why? It allows mimicking of real life easier. So I think the argument is the opposite of what's been stated in this forum. It makes more sense to me to have ramping in woodsball, because woodsball is more (much more) real life (part of the attraction) than speedball.

Also, while several people have stated that ramping was for people with less skills, it's rather easy to shoot 15 bps without ramping. However, ramping makes it easier for everybody to do it, helping the new player. Again, mimicking real life. A real gun doesn't know who is pulling the trigger (Example: an M16). Woodsball at the end of the day is the old game of "Army" I played as a kid, except now, you prttey much know when you've been hit or hit someone else.

Ramping in woodsball allows the player to concentrate on what really separates woodsball from speedball, which is the tatics and team work. Where speedball lasts, what, 3 minutes max, woodsball games can last up to 24 hours. You might get tired, but with ramping, your fingers will not ache from shooting.

I have palyed speedabll, but I started in woodsball, then tried speedball. I think it makes a difference in some people's perception of this. It seems to me, speedballers are quicker to call overshooting than their 100% woodsball counterparts. Perhaps I'm wrong, but even on T.V., the professional speedballers cry overshooting quickly.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but can you not see my point of view? (I can see yours; I just don't agree)

I totally agree...

[24HG_Hoop]

Ramping and full auto aren't necessarily evil. If you don't control it, though, it can be. I've ran games now for over five years, and I've allowed full auto and ramping the entire time.

In general, I think ramping and full auto is kinda gay. I like the thrill of hunting a guy down and popping him more than I like seeing something move and laying paint into the area until somebody's hand/gun pops up. Some people like that though, for whatever reason.

The genie is indeed out of the bottle, but most guns nowadays can shoot as fast in semi as they can in full auto. Full auto and ramping is just an easy shortcut to gaining that skill.

Of course you get complaints about overshooting, but 99% of the time its actually not a result of somebody "overshooting." MOST times there's two or eighteen guys going up against two or eighteen other guys. One guy gets shot out, maybe even by multiple guys, and he stands up to walk out. MOST of the time there's a buddy of his that's 10 feet away (left, right, in front of or behind him). He stands up and THWACK! "Waaaaa, I got overshot!!" Really, all that happened was he stood up in the middle of a firefight. Playing pump wouldn't have even solved THAT situation...

I guess "control" of it all starts with whoever's running the game and how they're handling it. I tell my guys there's no restrictions on full auto and ramping, but that the refs won't hesitate to punch their card if they think somebody went overboard. Ref punches are a three-strike system, so even if its heavy-handed to punch questionable overshooting incidents, the offending party still has two more chances to act right.

That being said, its perfectly legitimate to allow full auto and ramping, so long as players know its in check. Personally, I think those things are interesting in their own right - a mock machine gun in a battle of muskets, if you will - but now that semis will shoot faster than 10BPS with very little effort, its really time to educate, rather than try to restrict.

[HomE SkiLLeT]

^^This guy provides words of wisdom. I think there wouldn't have been so much controversy on the whole issue if more refs would have been out on the field. I'm not saying that the refs out there, didn't go a good job, because they did an EXCELLENT job. I just think they needed more help, because the couldn't be everywhere on the field at once.

[elvis]

i agree 100% the refs they had where good sorry they where the best but they needed more for the area they was trying to cover.i will say this thoe the refs where there every time i called a paint check or i was lost which was a lot !!! lol and another thing i think most of these players that said they got overshot at triggertyme just wanted something to fuss about u guys who was crying about ramping yall are like a soap opera as the stomach churns yall need to form a group .

[Sittin_duk]

Originally Posted by Aerion

I didn't compare ramping to a nuclear bomb. That's the kind of unfair and divisive response that makes political dialog so venomous these days. It's also an obvious strawman.

I simply provided examples of technological advances that are generally recognized as doing more harm than good and have had rules to limit their use - such as steroids and nuclear weapons.





Again you bring up an irrelevant strawmen rather than directly address the points of my discussion - leading me to believe that you have no logical counter-argument.

EDIT:

Instead of throwing up strawmen, you guys might try logical and reasonable counter-arguments. You could start by coming up with logical reasons why ramping somehow is good for woodsball or otherwise promotes or improves the sport. Thus far, all I've heard is that:

1> Those who believe ramping is bad are wimps or cry-babys and should give up the sport.
2> The technology is here to stay so if you don't like it refer to number one above.

Ah, but if I have no counter argument with my previous statements, then you have no argument with yours because we both said basically the same thing in our posts, I just didn't elaborate as much. You bring up a few random subjects and compare them to ramping. This is paintball, not golf, not politics, not baseball, or any other sport.

Ramping is good for the sport. How? For all of you mil-sim guys this one's for you. Since scenario ball is supposed to be a "war re-enactment" then why can't we use full auto/ramping. I mean...there are weapons out there that shoot full auto...right? Or am I wrong? So ramping/full auto is more warlike.

So now, we'll go on to do as Aerion does, name random technologies that DO benefit people:

"Golf: There are rules in competition and on many courses that limit the materials that golf balls and or golf clubs can be made of because the technology exists to vastly increase the range most players can hit the ball. Course sizes can't effectively scale to adapt to the technology to keep golf challenging."
Golf: The new technology of drivers. Metal tends to hit a lot further than wood drivers do. Thus, benefitting the world of golf and lower scores all over the place.

"Baseball/Softball: Titanium bats are almost universally banned from most leagues because they hit so much farther than other bats and could make home runs the rule rather than the exception. Many leagues now require restricted flight balls to be used. Professional baseball still requires wooden bats to be used to prevent that level of baseball from becoming a home run derby."
Baseball/Softball: So Mr. Aerion, why haven't they banned Aluminum bats from leagues yet? Oh, because it was a technological advancement. BTW, Aluminum bats hit a lot farther than wooden bats do.

Just because of laziness we'll skip to nuclear weapons.

"Nuclear Weapons: This weapon technology is so devistating that many, treaties have been made to limit their creation or use. Imagine if people took the same attitude about nukes that some have taken about ramping technology."
Nuclear Weapons: How, Mr. Aerion, can you not call this a beneficial technology? It ended the second World War. Although it killed many innocent lives (God bless their souls) it was not the US's fault, the Japanese forced the civilians to stay in the cities when the US dropped a ton of little pieces of paper telling them to get out, you probably know all of this though. It ended the war that would have claimed a lot more US army troops had we not have ended it. And as you can tell, we were desperate to win the war.

Now...onto ramping...
How is it not beneficial..? It relates to real world situations. It's fun. It gets people out faster for me. It gives you the few insurance balls that you need in case one of the first balls don't bust. It's easier to reach 15 bps. It evens out the playing field for people that shoot electros(by electros I mean ramping electros).


Is that better than my previous "strawmen" (I don't even know what that is) argument?

[Aerion]

Please let's keep this discussion civil, ok? We're all adults and friends here. None of this is personal - just a difference in opinions.

Originally Posted by Sittin_duk

Ah, but if I have no counter argument with my previous statements, then you have no argument with yours because we both said basically the same thing in our posts, I just didn't elaborate as much. You bring up a few random subjects and compare them to ramping. This is paintball, not golf, not politics, not baseball, or any other sport.

Ramping is good for the sport. How? For all of you mil-sim guys this one's for you. Since scenario ball is supposed to be a "war re-enactment" then why can't we use full auto/ramping. I mean...there are weapons out there that shoot full auto...right? Or am I wrong? So ramping/full auto is more warlike.

So now, we'll go on to do as Aerion does, name random technologies that DO benefit people:

"Golf: There are rules in competition and on many courses that limit the materials that golf balls and or golf clubs can be made of because the technology exists to vastly increase the range most players can hit the ball. Course sizes can't effectively scale to adapt to the technology to keep golf challenging."
Golf: The new technology of drivers. Metal tends to hit a lot further than wood drivers do. Thus, benefitting the world of golf and lower scores all over the place.

"Baseball/Softball: Titanium bats are almost universally banned from most leagues because they hit so much farther than other bats and could make home runs the rule rather than the exception. Many leagues now require restricted flight balls to be used. Professional baseball still requires wooden bats to be used to prevent that level of baseball from becoming a home run derby."
Baseball/Softball: So Mr. Aerion, why haven't they banned Aluminum bats from leagues yet? Oh, because it was a technological advancement. BTW, Aluminum bats hit a lot farther than wooden bats do.

Just because of laziness we'll skip to nuclear weapons.

"Nuclear Weapons: This weapon technology is so devistating that many, treaties have been made to limit their creation or use. Imagine if people took the same attitude about nukes that some have taken about ramping technology."
Nuclear Weapons: How, Mr. Aerion, can you not call this a beneficial technology? It ended the second World War. Although it killed many innocent lives (God bless their souls) it was not the US's fault, the Japanese forced the civilians to stay in the cities when the US dropped a ton of little pieces of paper telling them to get out, you probably know all of this though. It ended the war that would have claimed a lot more US army troops had we not have ended it. And as you can tell, we were desperate to win the war.

Now...onto ramping...
How is it not beneficial..? It relates to real world situations. It's fun. It gets people out faster for me. It gives you the few insurance balls that you need in case one of the first balls don't bust. It's easier to reach 15 bps. It evens out the playing field for people that shoot electros(by electros I mean ramping electros).


Is that better than my previous "strawmen" (I don't even know what that is) argument?

Hmm... first, a strawman counter-argument is when someone takes a point loosly related to the original position and shoots it down while avoiding the main issue - much like the above post did by arguing technological advancements are mostly good. Your counter-argument WOULD have been valid if I had said that technological advancements are all bad or even mostly bad. But that is a long ways from what I said.

What I DID say is that not all technological advancements are good and some advancements have had rules made to limit or ban their use in order to keep the world safer or to keep the game competive, challenging and/or fun. To prove my point, I named some very valid examples. Those I listed related to games were particularly apt examples.

The closest thing you said in your entire post that approaches a reasoned and valid counter-argument is that full auto weapons are used in real combat and that paintball is kind of a war simulation so they should be allowed. This point actually addresses the real issue so I'll address this and ignore the rest. (Although I'd dearly love to argue some of your other suppositions - but, alas, they are not relevant to this discussion)

Realistically speaking, while most military assault weapons can fire in full automatic mode, most assault rifles have a selective fire switch to allow the soldier to fire in semi-automatic mode. Soldiers could not carry all the ammo they would need if they ran around firing at the speeds paintballers fire as bullets are larger and much, much heavier than paintballs. Only the larger crew serve weapons (like an M-60 or a SAW) are routinely fired in full auto mode. (if you think otherwise, you've been watching Hollywood too much) Even when firing weapons in full auto mode, soldiers are trained to fire short three round bursts to conserve ammo. As a veteran, I can tell you from personal experience that the emphasis in rifle training is consistently placing one shot on target at ranges of up to 300 meters. In my entire military career, I never live fired an M-16 in rock and roll mode. The only weapon I fired in full auto was an M-60 mounted in the door of a Huey with a couple of cans of belted 30 call ammo sitting next to it - NATO 7.62 to be exact. (Yes, I'm showing off)

Yes, it can be said that paintball, especially scenario ball, is a mock combat. But then many other games can have the same thing said about them. Paintball is in fact a game. In all games (including such games as online role-playing games and so forth) realism usually has to take a back seat to making the game safe, playable, challenging and fun. In real combat people die or are brutally wounded. Real guns fire ballistically stable projectiles at speeds of up to 4000fps. Does that mean we should remove velocity limits to make paintball more realistic? Of course not.

As a bit of an amateur military historian, I certainly favor making woodsball realistic. But not the expense of damaging woodsball as a sport. And I believe in my heart that hundreds of people firing paintballs at 15+bps in full automatic mode is bad, bad for woodsball.


Finally, at the end of my post I challenged all proponents of ramping offer a reasonable argument that ramping is good for woodsball. Thus far no one has even offered a valid argument that ramping is NOT bad for woodball (in otherwords a neutral effect). But to give credit where due, you have come the closest so far.

[PaintedWarrior]

From all the posts it sounds like everyone had a good time. lol.

War is chaos and a warrior learns to control himself during chaos.

This game simulated an army of Rebels invading enemy territory.
All the union had to do was keep the dam from breaking against a frontal assault. The south had to break enemy defenses with a strong penetrating thrust. OK calm down youngsters.

The first assault showed the south advancing into the town of Gettysburg. What do you know it happened exactly the same way in real life. The simulation of union forces feeling like any minute their line would break was the same. The south stole 300 points from the union leaving them 100.
The next 3 skirmishes showed the union winning the first and the south winning the next two. This brought the total to 600 to 200. The south winning.
The second assault had 4 areas that the union was to hold. The south gained 1 area and 100 additional points. The south kept the rest and added 600 to their score. Total score now 800 south, 700 north.

Skipping the second set of skirmishes-

The last assault gave 400 to the north and 300 to the south.

What do you know we have a tie game gentleman. oops. I forgot the second set of skirmishes.

The south held all three. The first (#4) being right beside the union respawn point. Whoever directed Steers (who did a fabulous job of holding it by the way) to hold Devils Den when all skirmishes are at spinner locations is beyond me. The #5 skirmish could have been taken by the north if forceful approach was made. But alas it failed. (Props to the green machine "pirate" diving for the spinner, you needed everybody running with you man, not yelling for you to run!) The #6 skirmish was to close to the rebel
base and was in their favor as the #4 skirmish was close to the union respawn point.
The game was lost by union forces through managerial mis-allocation of troops at what proved a pivotal moment in the battle of Gettysburg. Bingo

Peace out brothers see you at a no ramping TRIGGERTYME VS THE ARMY OF DARKNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come get some!

[Junkie]

Originally Posted by PaintedWarrior

Peace out brothers see you at a no ramping TRIGGERTYME VS THE ARMY OF DARKNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come get some!

And that makes for a great closing point. I hope you learned from this TOPIC as much as I did.

If you have any more questions or concerns please take it up with Trigger Tyme management / ownership privately.

Thanks,
Junkie.